My problem with hell.

Ok, then how do reconcile the fact that the Hebrew scriptures do not talk of Hellfire and that they say that the dead have no work, nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom or that those who are dead go back to the ground and that in that day their thoughts do perish with your belief this illustration is talking about something that really happened?

How is the rich talking or thinking even, if he has no knowledge or wisdom and his thoughts have perished?

When do you think God made this “Hell” you speak of? The Bible never mentions its creation. And why didn’t God mention it as a possibility to Adam and Eve? It would seem to be critical information. The judgment laid upon Adam and Eve was dust you are and to dust you will return not you will burn forever in hell.

 

I dont see the parallel between the two examples at all, I'm afraid. It's becoming overly specific.

My point is that where in all of creation, could you go to be seperate from God, when God and his creation are one? He is everywhere right? And remember, you are part of creation.

 

Where? The question is maybe how (?) does one separate himself from God: it is that we chose anywhere and everywhere. Disagreeable? Maybe we didn't chose, and the 'where' question can become a matter of opinion for and by the logic.

Faith is always meant to overcome logic, and in a proper Religion it is faith, or belief, which is beyond the values of adjusting faith to the rules of logic.

 

Once again, you don't have to GO any where to separate yourself from some one, even God.

It's something you do not somewhere you go.

 

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm still at a loss here. If God has created everything, and you are part of that creation, how may you be seperated from him? What exactly could you possibly do?

 

You could go to hell neodude. -- Hey Howdy OlderWaterBrother! It realy is good to see your response to my post. I seen somma your posts and I find you fear the Lord. I fear the Lord too. I think what God was pointin out with the parable bout the poor guy at the gates who dies, is that there will be some kinda regret if you do seperate from God. We can see that the rich guy was askin for the permission to recieve the word of God even when he'd alreadfy gone to hell. He was askin for the permision to then spread the word to his loved ones. The Lord was showin us that even after death we'l still be able to desire love of God. He shows that for some, the realization of hell is the only thing that will bring on submision. (and When we submit, we may find grace.) You may not be able to knock on hells door, but its there none the less.

 

well, if hell exist, then it is a part of God's creation, so I dont see how being in hell makes you seperate from God.

 

First, please remember when I say separated from God, I do not mean being in a different place because, as you have so well point out , that can’t be done. So what I’m talking about is a condition.

So how would one do it? It’s pretty much the same way with anyone who would like to display love toward you. You just show that person that their attentions are unwanted, you don’t generally leave town. With God you might follow the path of Satan and accuse God of being a liar and of being someone who withholds good things from his children and of being someone who enjoys seeing his children in pain and suffering and maybe even tell him that the only reason anyone would even pretend to love him is for what they can get him. That would be a good start in separating yourself from God.

 

Here is my take on the whole hell thing..it is a total pagan teaching, just another of satan's designs to draw people away from God and confuse them.

 

I agree with Brother Olderwater on this, although Neodude raises a good issue. God is everywhere, presumably even hell, so physically it's impossible to be separate from Him/Her. But hell is not a place, it's a state of mind--a bad attitude, so to speak, characterized by rejection of the spiritual force that gives meaning and purpose to existence. It's possible to be lying next to somebody in bed, or even to be having intercourse with that person, and still be separated by a wall of emotional distance. Saint Augustine argued long ago that God's omnipotence does not mean that (S)he can do things which are logically inconsistent, like making black white or making a rock (S)he can't lift. When God allows free will, by definition (S)he is logically unable to alter the choices of a person who exercises it. If a person chooses to devote his/her life to bitterness, hatred, rejection of the values that bring true meaning, lasting satisfaction, and happiness, and is therefore miserable and creates hell on earth for himself and everyone around him, what can God or anybody else do for them, except continue to explain the folly of that course of action? The Buddha made the same point in different language, talking about the suffering caused by attachments and bad karma.

 

Quote from the movie 'Barfly' by by the way, francis Ford Copola: "He hates Hell; he'd piss on it if he could."

 

To think of hell, break it down more.

Heaven and hell. This is a duality. A basic simple duality. Not attached to Christianity, not attached to any ideology. It is a simple dualistic archetype one projects onto the world around them.

Then you must define these base archetypes more.
Heaven is where everything is automatically good, automatically all love.
Hell is where everything is automatically bad, automatically all hate\dislike.

Now just to share a thought in this context. The thing about this is, even among atheists, or self-proclaimed buddhists, or whomever. Across ALL spiritual backgrounds, religious backgrounds, or lack of any religion or spirit, and just varying philosophical backgrounds. Most people I run into still cast this duality of perception onto the world around them. You ask an atheist, "do you believe in hell" and he will typically think to Christianity, and say no I do not hell is absurd. But probe a little more and you'll find this just is not the case, as there is some component in their reality which they are projecting the hell archetype onto, even if they do not realize they are doing it. For example, a group that I find always notions to hell being absurd, the scientific rational atheists, most of them would consider being a wandering homeless person to be a form of Hell. They desperately hold onto there aim for a bachelors degree, a proffesional career, as though it were heaven, because they fear the opposite, homeless journeying, as though it were hell. But if someone asked one of them, "do you believe in hell?" I typically find, as I said before, they don't think they do. When, as I just explained, quite obviously they do believe there is a state of being, a place one can end up in which everything is automatically bad, hated, disliked, such as homeless wanderer. Then right along with judgmental Christians, the atheists are also quite quick to cast judgment onto people "do this or your gonna end up a bum", this is really nothing more than the atheist version of a Christian saying "shape up or your going to hell". The Atheists are almost worse than the Christians in this because, as the Christians are aware Hell is simply a component of their belief, the Atheists don't even realize their projected Hell archetype is also just a belief, they'd rather believe that it is some form of objective truth.

So ask yourself, have you really removed the archetype of hell from being projected onto reality? Do you believe there is some situation, or state, of any kind, anywhere, that you can get into in which it is automatically bad? That situation, that state of being, is operating in your brain the exact same that 'Hell' operates in a Christian brain.

 

I just wish more people realized this.

 

The whole problem with hell IMO is that it is bullshit. Don't exist. It was invented by the catholics in order to scare people into joining their religion.

 

Save your money so you can buy an A/C when you get there. Or tell St. Peter you have sensitive skin.

My problem is that it is one of many facets of what is teh most influental piece of fiction ever created.

If you live by the ideals of a book written by man , 2000-5000 years ago , you might as well live by teh beliefs of Robert Jordan from For Whom The Bell Tolls. It would be teh exact same thing. Except , no wars have been waged over For Whom The Bell Tolls.

 

Actually they didn’t invent it because its origins predate Catholicism but they did adopt it to, as you say; to scare people into joining their religion.

 

It does pre-date Catholicism, but in the earlier times it was simply considered teh afterlife. Not a place of suffering and torment and punishment. Hell is different depending on which deity you worship. For people to "realize" what hell is would be implying that it actually exists.

With so many deities , how do we know which one is real , if any are?

 

Sorry that still makes no sense, unless you believe God to have humanlike qualities.
Jesus said "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
That, to me, means that we exist because of God breathing life into existence, and that turning towards God we will recognize our own eternal nature of the Soul.
Therefor you have no choice, you have your own problems to work out in order to come to God, but you have no choice. All of us return to God, or God doesnt exist is how I see it. Why would God, rather HOW could God, be so offended by someone's disbelief or blatant disregard for love, that God will hold off eternity for that soul indefinitley?
Retarded.

 

:iagree::cheers2:

 

Thank you! It makes no sense. If God made existence, that means God made our brains, God made our thoughts, and God makes our actions. Unless of course, we dont believe God is all powerful? Oh fuck it, Jesus came on a UFO and we're all getting touchy about some aliens trying to lead us to eternity through magic mushrooms, thundering God voices, crop circles and time travel. Let's just give in to the aliens and move on.