my perennial message to the war mongers of hippyland

You seem to base a lot of your stances on what Bin Laden has to say MB. If Bin Laden is such a menace why hasn't he been captured? The might and technology of the western world can't bring him to ground? Convenient isn't it that he can pop up from time to time and stir the water.

 

Well you have to base a few things on what he has to say - it does help. Unless you are under the impression he is a mouth piece for the west - themselves.

He has said some alarming things. His ideology it is said is based on western political rhetoric and a dash of german Philosophy. Not to ignore french philosophy.

They all are at it - most goverments and ''terrorists'' or ''dictators'' have noted the philosophy of kant / Hume / negative / positive liberty [to name but a few of the influences] - that is what interests me.

That makes his {OBLs] paradigm a little predictable but none the less unfathomable - when he decides to digress from ''western'' constructs.

The British PM wrote to several philosophers - just before one died [the other he recieved no response]. That is the true battle imho - not oil or land etc .

OBL is no longer the ''menace'' - he no longer holds any real significance imho - Others with not the depth or breadth of OBL are at the level of the majority - Fumbling there way though ''foreign policy'' and ''OBLs intentions''.
Those are the people we need to catch and prevent from spreading the myth of OBLs ideal of ''Peace''.

Imho he no longer holds the same ''menace'' as before as he is either dead or his beliefs are firmly rooted in many of his underlings [that are being captured]. It no longer matters if HE is captured - OBLs rhetoric is being parroted by many many other. To capture him will no longer water down the ''menace'' of his and his associates philosophy.

You can have all the technology in the world - if he is in some bolt hol in the middle of a un-policed district. it is very hard to locate him. If political expedience / platitudes - prevents further action or re-action to him - then he will be free for a very long time to come.

 

Guess I am under the impression that he is being used to further the goals of the west. And that's perhaps the biggest reason he hasn't been run to ground and Bush and Co. from time to time say he's not important only to change direction a short while later lay credence on his claims and statements.

Not following you here please explain.

 

I think we were all under the impression he could and would carry out more 9/11 type atrocities. The media have a louder voice than any goverment so have made him into a anti hero and drop his name into any conversation on terrorism - however vague the goverment might do the same thing.

Even the lowest ''radical'' has OBLs name on their lips - so he has now a almost christianic indulgence and importance - given to him.

Even when goverments do not mention him for a while - we wonder why.

If you accept OBL is a real entity and works for his own goal [however he may be used by western goverments to further the ''fear factor''] I think we have to recognise that he [or his ideas] are a real threat - even if the media hysteria is slightly OTT.

To be honest it is difficult to know the machinations of the US - but here in the UK. Imho it is more the media and the sad fact of OBL being fingered as a rationale by ''jihadists''. That makes him more of a a ''menace'' than he himself is.

It is easy shorthand to not have to go through the endless myriad of reasonings and speaches given by ALL over the last few years . Drop OBL into the mix and half the story is told. Even if it is a gross symplification.

Just like for e.g say McDs being the only reason [supposedly] people ar fat and they are the only people seemingly and more often than not that need to be or are looked at - There role in the obescity epidemic is higher than is valid AND it is not ultimately true that they are the only people complicite in the issue. - If Mcds were to be closed - obesity would still continue . It is a bit of a vapid reference but it best highlights my POV.

So why bother closeing down McDs when the ''threat'' goes beyond them - now.

gee whiz i hope that made sense ....

 

The philosophy and ideology of ''peace'' has been spoken about by differing ''dictators'' and ''terrorists'' goverments - for a very long time. The majority have read and argued for or against the hand full of theories on the subject.

Mr Blair is a advocate for several philosophical constructs. He wrote to several philosophers outlining his thoughts [in about 1997]... one died before he could respond the other did not respond.

Who is to know if he did get a response - what his actions would have been. Would they have altered the decisions he took .
http://berlin.wolf.ox.ac.uk/letterstoberlin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Berlin
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/blair.html

 

I don't put much faith in Mr. Blair or his correspondence. Not having direct contact with jihadists it's hard to know what or who they are actually following. Except what we are told by our governments and press. But I get a little tired of hearing Osama Bin Laden spoken of as the big boogey man, but not directly targeted by my administration. And occassionaly told by my government that he is not important. Only to be told the next week that he is guiding the hand of the radicals. Who to believe?

 

It is true that ''what we are told'' is wrapped up into about a 3 miniute soundbite. Even today John Reid the home secetary was pretty much told to shut up - so some BBC political commentator could tell us what to think on the matter.

To a degree it is sad that what goverments say is spun into something it is not - and we spin things into something it is not.

I too get tired of hearing about OBL as the big boogie man - but the sad truth is - the majority of jihadists still reference him and he still has ''power''. It is easier for the majority of jihadists to reference OBL - because the majority of us sort of know of him and what he stands for.

 

MacDonalds sells a product, no one forces anyone to buy from them. MacDonald's doesn't create fat people it only sells to them.

 

I haven't heard any direct commentary from the jihadists. Have you?

 

Yes - http://www.aina.org/news/20070427103413.htm

All those that spoke regarding the rationale behind 7/7 especialy mohamed sadiq khan.
Plus -
The statements given by those that have been proven to be the persons behide islamic terrorist attacks..

 

Absolutetly true - BUT that does not mean the literature and advertisements are not picked up on by a few people with a prediliction and/or susceptible to that kind of propoganda. It is still used as a excuse and is still used as a whipping boy by a large portion of people that wish to put the blame onto something everybody can identify with. The majority of us can ignore what they perpetuate. It still is a real and argueably a very key factor why some people are fat.

 

maybe macdonalds can take over iraq

 

Then America will be blamed for Iraqis obescity problems - mmm do you not think they have enough issues to contend with ?

 

obesity is probably the last of their problems, those problems caused by the invasion of course.

off the top of my head thinking back on it perhaps it would have been better if the yanks created a slow invasion, this wouldn't have created the vacuum of power.

thinking back on it the wall idea can be used for good and bad. the good is that the wall separates warring parties, the bad is that it creates a ghetto where people can be rounded up easily.

the best thing they can do now is flood the country with new furniture , some solar panels for each house (so there is at least some power and hot water for each house), new clothing, white goods, dry toilets (the composting type, due to the sewerage system being buggered and bizarrely enough healthcare products (when people feel good about themselves the last thing they want to do is start getting themselves injured).

the best thing the yanks should do is forget the foot patrols/ hummer patrols the battle on the streets is lost controlling a few major highways and creating a few forts and keeping inside is probably the most they should do. the forts should not be in the town but outside. each community should be fortified to stop bombers.

pretty soon no one will even notice that the yanks have pulled out. because each community has regained its safety, governance and identity there will be less trouble. having an established governing body responsible for the maintenance of each village/ town/ city sector, these governing bodies can engage in diplomatic dialogue.

 

The Problem of Shia vs Sunni extends way back past American intervention.
Past American independence even. Into the Middle Ages.

We flatter ourselves that The US could create ( or fix ) such a chaos.

No furniture, nor walls nor economic incentive will heal this emotional rift between the two peoples.

 

what was the first thing people did with the fall of saddam?

they looted, religious differences didn't even come into the picture.

whatever they could, furniture,appliances etc etc

realistically the cost of supplying appliances and furniture is minimal compared to the cost of providing security. i say give the people what they want. give something to live for and you'd find less trouble - who's going to blow themselves up for god when they've just been given a widescreen tv and multiple satellite channels? i'd say, try this approach first and see what gives. providing some solar cells to put on peoples roofs will stop powersupply worries. so what if someone blows up a powerstation, if people can already get power from their roof so what. its alot harder trying to wreck someones house to destroy their solar panels, at the first sign of trouble you'd get someone sticking their head out the window firing an ak 47 at you.

in the meantime communities need to be divided into cul de sacs so drive by shootings and bombings become a bit more difficult by posting a rough defensive position at each entrance to each street, bombers would be forced to run the gauntlet of walking into their target instead of merrily driving to it. perhaps some of the older residents could man these posts? having a simple, cheap and effective mechanism to stop bombers in their tracks, i'm thinking something like a anti tank ditch with a cover that can be slid over to provide a way through or even like a castle draw bridge. if a car or truck is exploded to clear the way it will only destroy the line defence enough to make it impossible to travel through. destroying the gate only makes travel through it even harder.

putting some paint on buildings would be good too, make the roofs white to reflect heat. chaotic ruins and bullet holed buildings create further disorder, give home owners/ tenenants the materials to repair their house. creating neat orderly appearances makes something out of the ordinary more likely to be spotted.

 

What you are saying is true. The problem with that is those same people did not nesscerarly then decide to pick up weapons and start killing soldiers and fellow Iraqis.

Piney has a point - religous differences stretch back further in history -
''No furniture, nor walls nor economic incentive will heal this emotional rift between the two peoples. ''.
This is not to say every single person is fighting with their opposite No. [in the religous stakes]. The vast majority - like many other countries racked with secterianism - want peace.

You arer either being monumentaly naive or unquestionably opptimistic.
Do you honestly think suicide bombers go ''oh bugger Lord of the Rings is on - i'd love to see that on a large 48inch TV screen - oh if only the goverment or ''the west'' would give me one - gee whiz i'd give up my extremism and go and watch it - with a nice cup of tea''

Not going to happen is it ?.

Realisticaly the people [the vast majority] not engaged in violence would like the things you highlight - plus jobs - peace of mind - etc etc . This is not going to be achieved by giving all those engaged in violence a very large TV. Infact some would maybe see it as ''western capitalism gone mad'' - throw the TV in the street and use that as another plank in their hatred for the Iraqi and coalition goverments.

[again] You arer either being monumentaly naive or unquestionably opptimistic.
Infact it almost sounds like you are taking the piss.

Give it up dude - this idea you have is a BAD one.

 

>>[again] You arer either being monumentaly naive or unquestionably opptimistic.
Infact it almost sounds like you are taking the piss.

Give it up dude - this idea you have is a BAD one.<<

right .............. so the monumental cock up of iraq is working?

in light of recent events i'd say my ideas were more valid than ideas proven time after time never to work. with a million or so dead a raging civil war, a growing training base being nutured by the failed invasion my ideas to stop the the problems dead in their tracks are valid. if only someone were listening.

the wide screen tv example is only an example, creating the good life gives people the reason to behave themselves. notice america is wracked by its own civil war between the haves and the have nots.

the simplest defensive measures are often the best.

i say give the people what they want and stop bombing them. you say continue with the carnage?

 

A major appliance,a mustache cup and a bowling ball oughta get it.

 

Yeah but if they have no electricity to plug them in to it's hard to see their signifigance or bowling alleys to play in. Moustache cup now that's something almost everyone can use.