Morality and LSD

You know Desos it really is interesting how much a persons views change after becoming a parent.
My sentiment towards P. Popper is based on his repeated comments about women and his last thread here in which he bragged about how he and a friend assault some girl and "high fiving" each other as she lay on the floor crying.
When I hear things like that, I hear them as a father of five girls. I have empathy for that girl AND her parents.

There is a big difference between having compassion for someone and condoning violent abuse of another person. Judging another for the ACTS they commit is no problem, judging the person based on their circumstances is another thing entirely.

 

i think that specific morality may be subjective but i do honestly think there are some things which are simply wrong, like violence.

judgment is hard to call... i've always been fascinated by the idea of religious people who feel it is their duty to convert non-believers... they're just doing what they truly and honestly feel they have a responsibility to do so that a person does not go to "hell". also, if YOU have a specific morality and act on it, doesn't that mean you're assuming that other people have the same moral codes, because what YOU see as your moral actions are what you choose to influence in other people? it couldn't be any other way but i don't think it's possible to be 100% judgment free, normally.

 

lsd puts your brain on a high performance level in the general thinking aspect and the senses aspect. a concoction for major change in many different ways.
bad change is just impossible imo. as time/change goes, we learn. thats all we need and can rely on.
lsd just makes individuals more capable. and not capable in ways of harming other people such as the concept of lying. its a capable of the way of thinking. and when it comes to ways of doing things, all things could and should be tried out for the sake of learning. when it comes to lsd, you can't go wrong really. if the president or people like that did it, i imagine they'd definitely get major terrible trips. if the average joe does it, he gains knowledge and probably more creativity. then there's ego loss.
it's just a win-win situation i think

 

well i sure didn't know about that. i think, a serious ass beating within an inch of his life would be in order, but nothing too serious. i honestly don't see anything wrong with non-lethal violence. for punishment, and for fun. i've been known to lay a smackdown. it's not like that isn't anything that can't be recovered from. but some punishments are just too severe to really warrant justification under any circumstances. because even though you may fairly judge a person based on their actions, actions are by and large a product of our circumstance. you never really know the entirety of a person's circumstance. not that that justifies their actions, but just that it might not be the most beneficial course of action, or most helpful to correcting the misguided actions, if you pass judgement onto them.

hate to be the one to defend an abusive person here but it illustrates my point perfectly. what is inherently wrong with that? because of our preconcieved notions about causing other people pain being a bad thing? well sometimes insight is brought about through suffering, maybe it was a good thing. who's to really say? it's all subjective.

so then how do we justify any kind of morality?

 

You do realize that these statements are completely opposed to the spiritual/religious philosophy that you espouse and profess to live by?
Dude saying "it's not like that isn't anything that can't be recovered from." is ludicrous. Maybe you haven't witnessed some of the same type of fights and shit that I have. More often than not people are left with life long injuries.
What are you smoking today?
I really am surprised to hear you make statements like that. Guess your not the person I thought you to be based on the majority of your other posts.

 

well, i mean when you cross into that realm then i'd consider that being a type of lethal violence. i'm talking about violence without lethality, without the intent to seriously injure or kill. i used to play rugby. me and my teamates would fight all the time and things were all fine and dandy. as long as your not like attacking someone with a weapon, or making use of your body as a lethal weapon, then i don't see a problem. people shouldnt be such pussies. you also need to be able to control yourself to the extent that you don't seriously injure someone, and be able to defend yourself to the extent that you don't get seriously injured. maybe it's just how i was raised. but when your talking about someone continuuing the fight long after it is won, then that is lethal. when i was saying and for fun, i meant fucking around between comrades.

i think that being able to defend oneself is of the utmost importance. it doesn't matter how spiritual or enlightened you are, survival takes priority over all. this is the key issue of our root chakra, and without safety one cannot fully embrace the more metaphysical aspects of life.

 

I don't know, maybe it does have to do with how you were raised. If I have to defend myself in a fight, I'm going to fuck the other person up the best I can. I never have nor do I get into fights with people I consider friends. I was always taught that if you have to defend yourself, go for lethal force.
I remember reading a book many, many years ago called "In the Gravest Extreme" written by an detective and a forensic shooting specilist by the name of Masad Ayoob. The book was about gun ownership for self defense. In it he stressed emphatically that if you have to draw a weapon on someone to defend yourself or others, shoot to kill, don't stop shooting until they stop moving.
His logic was twofold; first most likely your attacker would not stop at just harming you
Two; It is almost impossible for the family of a felon killed commiting a crime to sue you for damages, but if you were to cripple them they could sue.
That was based on his 20+ years as an officer and another 15 or so as an expert witness in homocide shootings and self defense cases.

That is the philosophy I personaly hold, if I have to resort to violence, it aint gonna be pretty.

 

You have to keep in mind that these acts of violence can scar you psychologically as well, for example the incident with peter popper and that girl. Im sure she will remember that for the rest of her life and will def change the way she interacts with other people, will most def cause trust issues im sure.

 

being able to subdue someone without lethality imo is a much better way to handle things. but if your facing lethality then of course it would be best to use lethality, or if you could find a way to remove the lethality from your opponent(knock them out or take their weapons). killing someone so that they won't sue you hardly sounds like a good justification, lol. i'd rather be sued.

i think in a perfect world men would settle disputes without weapons and without lethality in fights -- merely with the intention to subdue their opponent. but that's not to say that some people don't just need their ass kicked. like petter popper, and a few other certain people i know.

 

Morality is based on action and reaction. There is nothing inherently wrong with violence, but that doesn't mean it's okay either. Your actions will be judged by others according to their morality, in addition to what I call "societal morality" (this comes into play when people get angry/hurt/scared about crimes which did not effect them directly). When someone's morality is offended or hurt, they're going to react, in any number of ways (emotionally, might respond with violence.. might have you arrested..., etc). Since I like the idea of being a nice person, I try not to do things which would harm other people (physical violence also counts as a slight against their "morality"). That's pretty much all morality boils down to - personal preference. One could bring religion into this, but I'd prefer not to. Maybe it's silly, but I take some pride in knowing that I choose to live the way I live because I want to, not because someone else says I have to.

I don't have all that much psychedelic experience, so I don't really feel qualified to comment much in that area. I will say though, that psychedelic use does not automatically translate into increased empathy and "non-violence". I think only if you've been told it will, and you believe it will, will it happen like that for you. I definitely got out of it what I put in.

 

Actually the author while not being against private gun ownership, wrote the book to make those who choose to keep a weapon for protection aware of the reality of it. Some key things he said that stuck with me are.

Only draw your weapon if you are ready and able to use it, and only if you or someone else is in grave peril of death or major crippling physical harm.

If you do have to use it, shoot to kill. Shooting to wound someone is hollywood garbage. Reality is police and other armed enforcement shoot to kill, no ifs ands or buts about it. Shooting to wound will only get you killed.

You WILL be taken into custody and charged with homocide at the time of the incident until things get sorted out. Standard procedure.

YOU are the one that has to scrub the blood out of the carpet and pick the brains and bits of skull off the wall. Police don't provide a clean-up service, no matter how justified the shooting.

As far as being sued as opposed to killing someone. Would you really like to have to get a second and maybe a third job in order to support the guy that raped and nearly beat you twelve year old half to death because you only wanted to wound him and now he's in a wheelchair for life.
Think about it.
You spouted off an answer without really thinking of the real life flesh and blood consequences.

That was the intent of his book, to make gun owners aware of the reality of a self defense shooting. He even cited cases where the exact type of situation I said above has happened.
I would rather have thier death on my conscience rather than the guilt towards my loved ones for not having killed the person.

 

yes. remember, don't be so quick to deal out death and judgement.

 

I doubt that if actually faced with such a situation you wouldn't pull the trigger.
But whatever, I've gotten completely off topic.

So how's about them yankees

 

There is no justification for rape and no one should have any sympathy for rapists.

Pride in having sexually assaulted someone takes it to an even worse level. Anyone who tells people not to judge rapists is too up their own ass with pretentious psuedo-intellectual morality.

 

haha. maybe. but still man, what human being has the right to play god.

 

It's a very dangerous attitude you have Desos, about subduing someone without causing undue harm or death...Me thinks you have seen too many episodes of "Walker, Texas ranger" lol

 

man ive never even watched that show lol. i don't really know why thats so dangerous, it's just nature. you can't be afraid of chaos and brutality, because they aren't afraid of you.

 

Honestly Desos I think if you encountered some of the people I used to hang/deal with you would wet yourself and cry like a little school girl.

Actually saw some fool who thought he was hot shit do just that. Young, strong, 6'5" surfer sent home crying like a schoolgirl by a guy 5'7" and twice his age, and all the guy did was cut the shirt off his back with a hunting knife.
OK so the little guy was a Ranger who did two tours of duty in 'nam, but still.
He even warned the little smart ass, "I don't know how to fight, I only know how to kill". May sound dramatic but it's the truth. The army didn't train him to subdue people, only to kill them. Even saw him walk away after getting a beer thrown in his face at a bar. He just said it wasn't worth killing over.

Like I've said before, I think back on some of these people and events and wonder how I'm still alive.

Some people just don't fucking give a shit about your ideas of morality and judgment, if you get into it with someone like that, you better be ready to take a life or cripple them for life or they will do it to you. You said you don't see anything wrong with violence for fun, neither do the crazy fucks who would love to bash your head in just for the hell of it on Sat. night.
Remember the scrappy little crazy fucker in the movie Trainspotting, well I have known a few people like that. They would laugh at your ideas of subdueing someone then piss in your face as you lay in the street with your teeth smashed on the curb.
Maybe you just haven't seen first hand that type of violence and brutality, I've seen it more than once. It changes your attitudes fast.

 

When it comes to Self defense... I'd rather face a jury of twelve than have 6 pall bearers carrying me to my grave!
As repugnant as it may seem, if my life is threatened,and there is no other way out, I will not think twice about inflicting as much violence on that person as I am physically capable. And then some. I have received training in this from a professional mercenary and world renowned martial artist who shall remain unnamed.
It was very expensive...!

ZW

 

Sounds like a friend I had long time ago. Saw him disarm some 13th street gangbangers,(notorious gang in So. Cal.) took a guys nunchucks(sp?) away from him, handed them back and said "try again little boy". After the third time the five of them piled back into thier car and took off, thank god this was before they all had AK's.

Same guy put his arm almost up to his shoulder into wet sand at the beach in three punches, he was fucking insanely skilled.
One night out drinking some drunk ass came at him with a knife, he broke both his arms, some ribs, his jaw and dislocated his shoulder, all in less than about 5 seconds. Glad he was my good friend.