Money is an organizational tool

The Totally Free Market:
Much like it is now, if you're in the US, except without money. Wouldn't you "work" for free if you got everything you wanted for free? I sure as hell would. Oh, you wouldn't? Would you rather get a small fraction of "everything you wanted" that we call money? Because it's comfortable? Is it worth having all these bums in the street because money is compact and comfortable? No.
So anyway, now that we don't have borders on Earth you can settle whereever you want, and now that there's no government there's no forced schooling, so from the second the umbilical cord is cut you have the rest of your life to do absolutley anything you want. This gives parents more time to raise their kids, family life is better, everyone seeks knowledge according to their thirst for it, everyone comes to know themselves much better and their talents and abilities, so that they can create and provide for the society that has created and provided for them.

"Hi, my name's Bob, I'm a carpenter because I like to design things out of wood."
"Oh, hello Bob, I'm Mary, I like to design clothes. Do you think you could build me a table for my house?"
"Sure I can! Why not?"
"Awesome! Oh and here's my card, incase you ever need a pair of pants or something, now you can get it personally fitted to you because everyone in the Total Free Market "works" based on their gifts, so everything is of a lot higher quality and there's no soulless corporations making useless crap we dont need."
"Great! see ya!"

and that's roughly how it would be in the total free market.
yup, it'll be great. no theives, no stress worrying about money, everyone has the time and freedom to live as they choose, if you want to be "poor" go ahead, if you want to mooch go ahead as long as people let you but just know that someday you may get your ass kicked for it if you have a history of mooching...
I would totally rather live like this.
I apologize if the picture still isnt clear. I can easily see it in my mind but because I have never seen it in real life it is difficult to describe off hand. What I really am doing though is preparing a book or manuel or manifesto if you will that will paint an accurate picture of this utopia.
Seriously, I'd love it if you keep questioning me about this if i haven't made it clear, I want you to understand how much more free we can all be.

 

andy's website idea sounds excellent.
i would picture a contraption that would make telvision obsolete; a computer everyone has in their homes that can broadcast websites, this would replace the telephone, radio, and tv because it is all in one. and through this, art is free, because it can be posted online by its creator and noone else, no royalitys or michael jackson buying the beatles songs he didnt write or any of that garbage that people get away with now (although you could post it i guess, personally id ask the artists permission).
With this supercomputer, there is unlimited communication between anyone and an enormous ammount of information, and anyone can have it. from there you can post if you would like to add a bonus room onto your house and see if anyone wants to help out.
"hi i'm ralph from nigeria, sure I'll fly to england to help you add on your bonus room, even though i dont even know you why not, i've always wanted to go to europe and ill be in your area around that time, i can help out."
and everyone benefits.

 

goodbye human greed.

 

Ahh, I think I'm understanding the picture a bit more clearly now. It's definitely a very interesting and creative thought... But still...

A) I firmly believe that some form of government is necessary to protect the rights of the people from others (and I think you agree with me but I'm not sure based on the way you wrote that). Otherwise people could go around killing or stealing without the victim being compensated in any way.

B) You are basing everything on a utopian society where everyone is kind. Would there not be people who refuse to give service of any kind? Wouldn't there be people who do a lot of favors but don't get anything in return? I could see it working if there were some sort of 'credit' or 'reputation' system that everyone went by, but other than that I see all sorts of problems.

C) What about technology? The example you used involved just one person's labor and design, but what about things that require extremely heavy duty factories and machinery to produce, for example televisions. I mean, it would take a long time for one person to build me a television, and I think I'd rather have one that was built by a company anyway.

D) There is no control of quality. Say I'm a carpenter, and I suck. How do you know how well I can do work? I say, "sure, I can do some work for your house," but I do a completely crappy job. Even if there were a way of telling who does good work and who doesn't, people are going to go to those who do great work and you'll run into the same problems as you would with money - there would still be people without jobs and would be forced to mooch. After mooching too much people would just say "man, this guy's a mooch, fuck him!" And you'd run into poverty and all those other problems.

I definitely like discussing this though as it is very interesting. So keep up the intelligent thoughts and maybe you'll win me over.

 

excellent, i'm glad these points have been brought up, as i have thought them out many a times,

A)True, that is the state of humanity today, but i believe if you pointed out what was so bogus about it you could negotiate a peace, as long as the appropriate situation is offered; it would take an immediate cease-fire of all conflict around Earth, like a global time-out, then the plan at it's perfect version after thorough examination and scrutiny so it's got it all covered (yet keeping it simple), because the way it is stated will be undeniable, once you have heard of the idea and know it is the obvious better path you would have to be insane to turn it down, then it would transition into this state...
there's so many changes that it has to happen all at once.
let's say at the moment of the switch there's troops at war. congrats, guys, wanna go hunt down those bastards and finish the job anyway? if you really think it will benefit the world go for it, or if you just want the kill then go ahead, just be aware of the reprucussions and weigh them out with what you get if you throw down your gun and go home to true peace and freedom, the most you can ever obtain in this universal life, what matters more at the moment? and if the enemy keeps marching then get those fuckers.
this is a huge subject here ill need a new post to finish A)

 

Government power would have to be placed in every individual on Earth. every man is his own state. the fact of the matter is, we have this power our entire lives, but from youth we are trained to obey concepts and rules, laws and commandments, what have you. the scenerio of "everyone running around killing eachother" is far-fetched, though I do of course recognize the human killer instinct. instinct can be manipulated, as shown with having a common trade item, money (which is the only true scarcity), summoning greed and selfishness from the mind of man. killer instinct can be used; are you hungry? do you like eating hamburgers? why dont you go hunt down an animal and eat it. then we can shut down most of the meat factories that are pollutive and sorta screwed up toward the animals. wait im getting into D.
the thing is, in the state i'm talking about, the state of no states, there would really be no reason to kill anyone. if you can get all the material items you desire, are free to express your love (which this society is uneducated about because of cultural restrictions, etc..) no scenario comes up where you would kill, except land. i dont know about property, its sort of a fictional concept, but possesion on the other hand is fact, and i see land being in your possesion, or more you in its. lets say youve settled on some plot you love dear and a pirate rolls up one day looking like hes going to blast you,
well the real question here is, what do YOU do? if it were me and he looked hostile, id take to my arms, for defense for situations just like this (you cant disinvent guns, so youd better take advantage of them and hopefully/likely never have to use it). You think this is crazy because its everyman for themself? it's always been every man for himself. calling 911 is a false annadote for fear. you think the cops will get there on time after youve been stabbed in the chest and are bleeding on the floor? not likely. this is how it is right now, so we might as well recognize it and take up our true responsability that has been lying dormant thanks to conceptual government.

 

not to mention half the crap that goes on right now is simply social byproducts created by currency culture.
a robber breaks into your house tonight, he came to steal your wife's jewelry. you're up taking a leak and when you come back to your room he's raped your wife, maybe killed her, made off with valuable items, and, i dunno, maybe he'll kill you, too.
this would have never happened if these items werent restricted to those with cash. trace it.
bam! Theivery is solved. not all of it though, some people do it for the thrill like Thomas Crown, and for that, well, i suppose it would become somewhat of an art, and hey, thats also no different than today, the true theives will always exist, 90% of the ones in our culture are merely money-byproducts. if i walked in on someone taking my computer i'd probably sling out my revolver and say, "come on, man, don't you know you can get one down at the market? it's a few miles that-a-way, here, you can take this mule..." and if something got jacked from you, big deal, go get another one, FOR FREE. just like today, but everything's free...
ultimatley, to me, government is a concept. right now it does not exist to me, except myself over myself. there are men in suits who claim "authority", it is not real. i find this to be true to all beings.
God I Love that, too, knowing i am in complete control of myself, nothing else, and no one is in control over me but the almighty. I can sit back and accept what God (life, however you define it) presents me and what I decide to go for. Have you ever thought that? or do you worry about your 9-5 job while getting a night school schedule and paying for your studio apartment and car at the same time?
This is the flat truth and it's time we as a species take a step forward and accept it with pride and gratitude. we are so unique and we squabble over the stupidist shit. its gotta stop.

 

"B) You are basing everything on a utopian society where everyone is kind. Would there not be people who refuse to give service of any kind? Wouldn't there be people who do a lot of favors but don't get anything in return? I could see it working if there were some sort of 'credit' or 'reputation' system that everyone went by, but other than that I see all sorts of problems."
I see money as the credit or reputation system right now.
But yeah, think of the free media, as mentioned earlier with the super computer idea. you see, because life would now become so personal and special, not sitting through gridlock traffic, life would be like an art, and through your own learning you would develop your talents and creativity and have the true freedom to maximize your individuality. Here's another nugget of the "truth" from me. Anyone can do anything. its that simple. i have asked myself what my purpose is, and my talent does happen to lie in creativity and writing stories and thinking of movies that would be so awesome but i dont have the money to make so i write a book instead, and i think, well that really doesnt physically benefit anyone, except if you see how emotions make you feel, so in a sense it can. anyway, i consider myself fairly bright and i know i can do any oddjob whatsoever, as long as i can learn it. so i think everyone would have a central source to offer their skills, and then you could also say default in which case it says im up for anything, contact me.
people would have reputations, infact, this is one of the most awesome parts in this whole scenario. no more celebrity. no more dumbass US weekly horse shit or any runaway bride bull crap. none of it. people would become legendary for their art and giving and being a terrific member of society. there would also be the joker mooches, of course, and once again, the question becomes, what do YOU do?
I give bums money when i see them, if i feel like it. i cant explain why. its almost a reflex, i dont really think about it. a few weeks ago i got off a freeway and there was a homeless man sitting by the curb with some sign and i had no cash so i ripped off a little nug and handed it to him, but had to drive off cuz the light turned green. anyway, i can picture a humorous website where moochers pics are posted and it says, "do not work with blank" and it would really be your choice. for me, in the 24 hours in a day, id probably spend 8 or 9 wandering around town seeing who needs a hand. that way id be smart in many areas.
all in all you work to your own liking, you give to your own liking, better accept whatever comes to you.
any currency AT ALL immediatly creates dependency, a certain amount of crime, and a "class" of poor people.
here all are one class, no class, how ever you like it.

 

as you can see ive had a lot of free time to think about this shit

oh, hey, for the people who get no favors in return, they communicate to eachother and do eachother's favors and no one elses for a bit

you know there really wouldnt be that many favors, aside from manual labor like moving furniture, haha. id expect most people to have the time to study and do things themselves, and of course everyone would have their certain specialties.

 

C) What about technology? The example you used involved just one person's labor and design, but what about things that require extremely heavy duty factories and machinery to produce, for example televisions. I mean, it would take a long time for one person to build me a television, and I think I'd rather have one that was built by a company anyway.
Dude, technology would EXPLODE, bro,
let's go over the shitty labor first. you know how cars are made in an assembly line? i'm sure we can have diamond mines run by machines, pretty much all mining mineral work done by machines, all technology assembly done by machines,
the people who are good with tech stuff will help us build the machines. they will be self automated, and if they broke down, wed know how to fix them. we also would make sure not to bestow them with enough intelligence to create a Terminator and/or Matrix situation. so most hard labor is now run by computers. but there would also be a lot of environmental benefits too that cancel out a lot.
so, we can have companies build televisions, if they wanted to have a better reputation.
the key to technology now is no longer motivated by sale but by pushing our species to the limit of greatness. With that in mind, technology would progress faster than ever. i think we would be off this planet and onto the moon within 100 years of this.

 

look how fast tech stuff moves now.
imagine if it was all working together for mutual benefit rather than working against for self benefit
it would square itself everyday.
quality would be consolidated and everyone would work to the natural make.

well i think ive covered D.

some more stuff, now im not saying completely get rid of it, but the automobile is ready to be scrapped. im sick of these ugly asfault and concrete scars on earth popping up like vericose veins on an old womans leg, miny malls playing the part of the warts. i think we can get some scientists to come up with a totally new vehicle thats safer, faster, cleaner, and easier on the environment.
blah...
I'm spent.
discuss.

 

if anyone else has comments id like to hear them

 

this is the most successful thread I've ever created...... wow.... didn't expect that, just thought of it as a soap box broadcast thread.......


wow.....

 

funny thing about money those who dont have it want it those who have it want more.money is not in inherently evil although much evil does surround it. money is convenient. I like money.
Ive lived with money and without money. the less energy you give it the more you have.the less significance you place on it the easier it becomes to obtain.before there was money there was the barter system it evolved into the monetary system. why go backwards?

 

ha yeah thanks, quest techie!

well dude, we wouldn't be going backwards, this would be the next step forward. barter system evolved into money which must now evolve back around in the cycle.
I think some people have trouble grasping just how much money does; while it's true I am putting a great deal of significance on it, saying it brings up the opprotunity for most of the crime that happens in the world, the truth is that it really is that significant. our ENTIRE LIVES depend on it, unless you want to be a begger.
let me try and make a simple equation:
money=trade item for service
so
service=money which you then use to get other services
im saying take out the middle man
service for service.
sort of like barter, sort of like money exchange, but the exchange is the fact that all is available to you.
you wouldnt get the service immediatley, unless you wanted it like that.
you wouldn't keep track of it either, like some point system, because then you end up with people making phony points and people with low points who are the new poverty, no. none of that.
nothing. its that simple. we're all one class, each individual their own class.
besides, most of the services would be like volunterring to drive the new shipments of the latest televisions to the town square, where everyone who wants one can get it.

whenever you add anything like money or basic trade item, you then divide it from "progress of the whole society" to "progress of each person" though it really isnt progress, its more of a struggle, depending on how your "job" is.
I'm saying you either live exactly how you want to in the scenerio described.
or keep living how it is now where you are severly restricted in pretty much anything you want to do, and don't just think of yourself here, thats the currency brainwashing making you selfish, think about the other people who cant get jobs because of some loophole or some garbage on their record, thats why most bums are on the street. think of the people on welfare (paid by you and me), with 6 kids in some shanty, congradulations guys, now you can live how you want.
money, seperate government, educational system, and our use of the environment, is all coming around full circle into a new evolution.

 

I'd like to answer EdwardJ's question.

The reason I think money is now obsolete is simply because there are very few shortages on this planet, and no shortages of necessities.

I think this idea that every person on the planet is a potential killer waiting to rush out and start the slaughter as soon as the threat of prison is removed, neads to be challenged because everyone thinks it until they think about it, then they realise it's crap. Besides which, I don't see how 'justice' is any difference to revenge. How can a murder victim be compensated in any way? As for theft...

There's no reason why factories, farms or any other large organisation should stop working just because there was no money. If you turn up at your local depot, market, whatever you want to call it, and they have no food they can send you to pick some up at the farm. If the farm needs workers it can ask you to do some work before it gives you any. Same with factories. Thing about the majority of factory and farm work is that it's far from highly skilled - anyone can do it - and, a little effort is worth a hell of a lot (especially with food). If you can go to a factory and pick up stuff for everyone, why would you steal? You can feel a lot better about yourself by helping people out and it wouldn't be hard to do if the employer wasn't watching his own arse in the way that's necessary when he's giving money away.

Credit will largely be gained by acquiring skills. The beauty of this is that giving skills away (ie teaching someone) doesn't cost you anything, it makes you both richer. As you'll largely be teaching people in your community, it will enrich your community and mean that you won't have to do as much work in that area. Teaching is fun, learning is fun. It shouldn't be forced (whilst any contribution is forbidden) while you are young then vice versa once you reach school-leaving age.

That's the way I see it.

The simplest argument, that I often tell myself when I'm losing faith, is simply this:
Money attracts money; you have a lot, it's very hard to avoid getting more. You have little, it's very hard to get yourself out of the hole.
Goods however, take time and space to store and they often devalue over time. They don't grow by themselves, like money does and there's no reason to keep an awful lot more than you need.

I think, KBlaze, it's important to envisage how this will work in today's world. I agree with you that it will accelerate progress but we will have to convince a lot of sceptics. Telling them how perfect the world will be once this system is established will not be as useful as telling them the direct, immediate benefits.

 

The Spanish conquest of The Aztecs and Incas and the appropriation of thier gold and silver monetized western Europe. This was the 1500's

Prior to that only the rich had money in coin.

 

Well, I certainly still have a lot to respond to . I'm not done yet, I still have a lot more questions I just need to take it slow and think all this out. Not to mention I have some stuff to do here so I'll be back to respond to a lot of this. Good discussion though.

 

yes true, im glad to see this isnt receiving the ridicule some lesser thinkers might give it
haha yeah i came to this about a year ago and im very passionate about it because i cant not see it anymore.
it may sound like im taling about a place 400 years in the future, but, i can easily see this occuring within a generation, as soon as the current problems like the war on terror, a sketchy subject in itself, is finished.
yes, immediate benefits must be focused on in the current world rather than my fantasies. people would likely be invited to stay at their jobs, depending on what that is, while the plan is assimilated. i would think major stores, target or walmart etc, would temporarily become "possesion outlets" where people would likely rush to pick up all they want that just became free. people would be reminded that all is available to them so no need for a riot...
i dunno, blah, ill let you all respond. i cant go on at the moment.

 

I dont think evolution goes backwards....and I dont believe that our entire lives depend on it..I lived for almost 2 years with little to no money granted I didnt stay in one place very long and it was a challenge. I also refrained from begging/panhandling yet did use foodbanks and community resources..but I digress, for most people this is simply not a reality..but really money now is worth nothing and it is just convenient energy much better than the barter system on a large scale which is why it was adopted.it really is not much different then the barter system instead of going X number of places to get what I need ( X= the number of things I need food + services+whatever) and hoping that what i have will be in need or demand I go to 2 (work) (place for goods and services) and I know that what I have (Money) will be accepted for what i need. all money is, is a transfer of energy just like anything else.