Mara and its relationship to Ultimate Reality

I dont understand how you can accurately say that. Are you implying that you are consciously aware of everything that goes on inside the universe? How can you even say for sure if you are capable of thinking of something that is outside it, when you have no clue what exactly the universe does encompass.

 

I would have to lend support to sexylilunicorn's reponse to this that the Universe encompasses every and all phenomena and provide the following link to support my reasoning: Mahanidana Sutta, Discourse on Causation. Particularily the paragraphs on the Seven Stations of Consciousness and the Eight Emancipations.

A great many people limit their perception of the universe to the Visible universe. Hence, universe(s), or multiverse.

I also disagree with "Life is bigger than just this universe." Life is a product of the universe and the universe is a product of mind.

According to Buddhist teachings action brings into being the whole mass of suffering. From action arises consciousness. From consciousness arises both Mental and Physical formations (forms). From mental and physical formations arises the six base senses. From the six base arises contact. From contact arise feelings. From feelings arise craving. From craving arise clinging. From clinging arise becoming (existence). From becoming arise birth and from birth arises death, the whole mass of suffering. Oh ... I left out one ... From Ignorance arises action. This in its entirity is the teaching on the Second Noble Truth, Dependent Origination ... because of this, that. Which also is the basis for continual appearance in the various realms of existence.

Kamma (Karma) is action. Because of past and present action we create the various realms we appear in accordance with causation. Because a great many beings are constantly appearing in various realms, we happen to share these realms created from our past and present actions. This realm you exist in now (or perceive existence in) is one of such realms. And according to Buddhist cosmology, we've existed in (created) every possible realm of existence manifold times.

This is the Universe. And no one, nor anyone else, need agree with this. Questions the Buddha would never answer was: Is the universe eternal, not eternal, finite, or infinite, is the soul and body the same, is the soul one thing and the body another, does a tathagata exist after death, does a tathagata not exist after death, does a tathagata both exist and not exist after death, and does a tathagata both neither exist nor not exist after death. In the matter of a tathagata both existence and non-existence no longer apply.

So, this is my perception ... agree (not required) ... disagree (not required) ... doesn't matter.

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IMO ...

It doesn't matter if anyone understands, or doesn't understand. All beings everywhere in every realm of existence have the same potential to become aware of everything everywhere in the entire universe all at once. However, we choose to focus our awareness here. We become single-pointedly attached to this point in the Universe by craving it, and perceiving just this significantly insignificant aspect of it. And the bitch of it all is, we've separated ourselves from it all and called it perception, concepts, ideas, views, opinions ...

Are you required to believe any of this? No ...
Are you required to understand any of this? No ...
Least ...
Not till you're ready ...

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Exactly, I never once said to devoid yourself of a greater purpose/spirituality. The ultimate goal and the purpose of this earth is to integrate both into a BALANCED WHOLE. Negating either one is bad.

 

That's okay.

No one says you have to be convinced. Cept, perhaps, you.

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Sweet. That is so cool!

You knew "exactly" each and every word I was going to use, starting with "That's" and every word following, ending with "you".

Far out. You're psychic. I mean, like, how way cool is that?

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Time has no physical identity at all, not a single atom of time can be said to physically exist, and yet we can all agree that time does exist.

The same may be said of creativity, consciousness, inspiration, unity, transcendence, etc. not to mention more day-to-day things like the horizon, numbers, beauty or the future. There simply is not a single particle of any of these "things" to be found anywhere in the universe. And yet, they exist. You can't truthfully argue against their existence.

So, why insist that only the physical is real? Isn't it just an unnecessary confinement of your imagination?

Peace and Love

 

One thing that seems to be forgotten here ... I still happen to be Forum moderator of the Philosophy and Religion forums.

Far as threads go, this one in particular, if it's not on topic, it gets deleted. Thats the micro-managing privilege I have. The only time wasted is done by the ones who tell me I'm waisting my time.

If it's not on topic, it gets deleted.

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No, I'm not implying that. Though in some way, I think every consciousness is a phantasm of the whole. So in a way I am consciously aware of everything that goes on in the universe, in that I am aware of the ultimate effect of everything that goes on in the universe at each moment in time.

But what I'm saying is what you're saying in your last sentence -- you can't say for certain that you're capable of thinking of something which exists outside of the universe. That was my complaint to begin with, the idea that what we are now isn't ultimately real. It may be limited, but it's as real as anything else.

That's the whole point, though, we don't know what time is. It definitely has a correlation in the movement of physical matter. If there is no reason to assume time is purely physical, there is no reason to assume it is purely ethereal either.

In the end, if you're saying that there exists within the universe an observer which has no identifiable physicality, that doesn't make that observer non-universal. It can easily be argued that the universe is only a phantasm of the mind. So if mind is all that really exists, then mind is the only thing that is truly universal. Therefore you can't go to different universes; you can only exist in one universe, which is of the mind.

 

Then, all of these things are simply concepts, no? Time itself is a concept, no? It simply exists because we agree that it exists.

I could phone a long distance friend and it be 5pm here right now, but it may be 5am where my friend lives.

whats that which connects the two different times together? the moment of now.

This moment now, it is true. What is outside of this moment now that is true? Anything at all?

 

Yes

"Bad?" yes, but . . . only because it is an inaccurate and misleading model of reality. It is simply less real than knowing all of this as a single, balanced, unified whole.

 

I agree

I don't understand this "phantasm of the mind," this idea that "mind is all that really exists," ". . . the only thing that is truly universal." Mind is essential, but it is not the whole. Reduce the Universe, or Ultimate Reality, or God, or whatever name by which one may know all of this to something far less than its entirety, and you will have an essentially inaccurate and misleading picture of reality, not reality itself.

Whatever it is, this wholly unified, omni-transcendent Universe (. . . etc.) is certainly mind blowing and the very definition of good.

Peace and Love

 

No. There are many things for which humanity knows no concept. Despite our ignorance, however, all of this exists.

Time itself is time itself. It is not made of anything else but time itself. It cannot be explained as a physical entity or a physical phenomenon. It is a primal facet of reality that can only be understood by way of its own nature.

It exists because it exists, whether we agree or not.

Oh, I see. The way one measures time IS conceptual, but it is not necessarily time itself. It does not explain time itself any more than your measurements explain you.

Yes. This moment now is time itself. You and he can name it whatever you can, but it exists according to its own nature, whether anyone agrees or not..

I believe this is truly a profound question. When one completely understands this question, itself, the Universe answers.

For now, one of Joseph Campbell's great quotes comes to mind - "Eternity has nothing to do with time."

Yes. But this moment now, is, of course, equally true.

Peace and Love

 

Kaminoishiki

False
Time i NOt a concept.. It is a process.

AS a process it cannot be 'pinned down' For consciousness and science are a function of the process called time.
No time.. no thinking about time..
Gravity is also a process.
Things move together..but there is no 'causal point'

Time is motion.. motion is mass/energy/space PROCESSING according to LAW.
Time is a effect. Not a thing.

occam

PS time as in clock time is simple human desire to measure duration.. of no importance. Dilational effects on duration are however.. facsinating

 

Forgive me for disagreeing with this statement. But I must.

A process is a an action, a systematic set of actions or a continuous action or operation. A concept is an inferred idea from general or specific instances of occurances. And, an occurance is an action, or something that happens, an event or incidence.

So time is a concept. A measurement of events (an action; something that happens; an outcome; an occurance; a conception) in space. (Conception: the act of conceiving; the state of being conceived.)

Quite literally, space cannot exist without time and time cannot exist without space. Both are interdepenent one on the other. Similarly so is the electromagnetic field.

Time has no motion itself as it does not move in any direction as an object moves. It has no forward motion and it has no backward motion. It is simply a measurement of motion. Motion is an event (an action or process of moving).

The mind creates time (conceives) in order to measure events, the result of which is space ... so, in fact, mind creates space.

Which is what was being inferred when I suggested in another thread that when you stop time, space itself ceases. For the one stopping time, then for that one only time and space ceases, but everyone else is still conceiving time and space, therefore for them it still exists.

No ... I cannot agree that Time is not a concept ...

Edit: In the book Gravity (1973; Misner, Thorne, Wheeler), a point in space is called an event because its location is defined by an intersection through three dimensions.

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We don't really need to even agree that time exists. Events are occuring. That we can agree on. What we can also agree on is that there is a point where the event begins, has a duration and ends. What we can also agree on is that there is space between beginning and ending and this space is its duration. And, again, what we can also agree on is that this space needs to be defined with a label, as do all things in order to exchange ideas for us to agree or disagree ... Time. Time does not move from the beginning of the event to the end of the event, rather it measures the amount of duration, space, change between beginning and end.

So we don't really need to agree, nor disagree that Time exists. We simply agree that space exists between the beginning (appearance) of an event to the end of the event, or that there is even an event at all, so we use a word to represent this idea.

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Darrel

There is nothing to forgive my brother..I may have been nonspecific..
As a process time automatically becomes a concept.
i thought this would be understood.

MOTION IS THE EVENT.. the PHENOMENA
A PHENOMENA OF MATER SPACE AND ENERGY
Time is a name for this called.by humans. [time]

However.. stasis, or NO time freezes matter energy but cannot elliminte space as mater and energy need space..
???

your thoughts?

Occam

 

First, what I say, I say from my own perception, which also includes from what I have studied as studying is applying ones perception in order to accumulate data. It is neither to be believed by anyone, nor expected to be believed by anyone.

Razorofoccam: Motion is the event ...
* From what I had already said, "Time is the measurement of events in space," and, "Time has no motion ... it is simply a measurement of motion," it would seem that this is what I was indicating. So I take it that this is an agreement ...

Razorofoccam: the Phenomena. A phenomena of matter, space, and energy. ...
* Phenomena is an observable circumstance, an occurance, a fact that can be observed or is observable. Observation is an instance of noticing or perceiving, regarding with attention, watching, noticing. Observation is not in sight only. Perception is not only done with the eyes, but also with the ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind. So in essence Phenomena is any kind of perceived circumstance, occurance or fact that can be perceived or is perceivable.

Perception itself is also time dependent. Being that the action of perception is an event and perception can be measured. Perception is a product of sense contact, i.e., sense + object = contact = awareness (consciousness). There is an amount of time between sense and object coming into proximity, an amount of time transpires for sensation to arise, pass, arise, pass, arise, pass, arise, pass ... for perception to classify what is being sensed, for the mind to fabricate based on remembered perception, and for the appearance of awareness.

All perception have moments of appearance, duration and cessation and as such can be measured. And not just a single instance of appearance, duration and cessation, but an ongoing moment-to-moment appearance, duration and cessation. Much like electricity (AC) has its ongoing moment-to-moment change from positive to negative states. It is the nature of sensation to remain in a moment-to-moment state of change else there will be no observable or perceivable sensation. Perception is a result of sensation, and awareness is a result of perception (actually thought or mental volition is a result of perception and consciousness is a result of mental volition -- mental volition is mind action; thought; ideas; fabrications based on repeated moments of perception or repeated moments of cognition; re-cognition).

Whatever that can be sensed (visually, audibly, aromatically, gustatorily, phyaically, or mentally) is said to be in a constant state of flux, constantly moment-to-moment changing ... else it would never be sensed. Outside of these six senses, there is no other way to perceive, or become consciously aware. If there is, it would behoove anyone to please make this known.

Matter can be said to have substance, but only when applying time to the measurement of the amount of space it occupies, i.e., measureing left to right (or vice versa), up to down, forward to backward, and from its foci to its circumference. All these are measurements which give the idea that there is substance or matter. And again, measurement in itself is time dependent.

Space could still exist without the presence of energy or matter, but energy and matter cannot exist without the space to define it in.

So with the cessation of time as a measurement, matter ceases as well. As does space and energy, because energy, as an observeable or perceivable phenomena depends on the factors of time and space to become observable.

Quite literally, without any reservation for doubt, when time stops, so does all sensation, all perception, all awareness, space, and matter ... ALL phenomena ... even mind itself ... it all just vanishes. This is as near to the idea of Nirvana as one can get. There is no thought. No ideas. No perceptions. No views. No right. And, no wrong. No pleasure. No pain. Not even nothiness. At this point all that could be understood of as something, everything, and nothing just IS without interference, without interaction.

But this does not hold true for everyone else who are still perceiving, who are still functioning on their senses, i.e., conceiving time and space. Long as one person still conceives time, space and matter, sensation, perception and awareness still exists in the form of conceivable (perceivable) phenomena. As long as there is perceivable phenomena, then time still exists in order to define both perception of phenomena and phenomena itself, including energy, matter, and space.

Razorofoccam: Time is a name for this called by humans. [time]
* Would it be more appropriate that Time is the function which defines phenomena for existence to be applied. Perception itself is a result of the presence of phenomena. Without phenomena, there would be nothing to perceive. Would it be appropriate to say that phenomena is the function of {Space, Energy, Matter}?

The measurement itself would still be there whether we decide to call it Time or something else. This measurement which gives it definition, substance, perceivable phenomena.

We had to get from [here]<--- to --->[here] in order to say it was this wide, or this tall, or this deep, or this big (?). In doing this, we actually conceived phenomena by conceiving its dimension and what better tool than time (the measuring stick whereby all phenomena exists or is said to have existence).

I hope I got this right ... sometimes I seem to loose my whole process of thought when I start thinking about things like this and it all becomes just a disconnected mass of jello.

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Darell.

If cogito ergo sum... IS [and it is], if i exist, so does a reality to allow me to exist..
A point oft forgot by most
Reality allows contact because there are real things to contact with.
Things.. As much as we dislike them as descrete entity, exist even if embedded
Love , desire and fear? dynamics , a product of material things.
A minor point many may say.. but i think.. the only point.
And thus i agree with you

"Quite literally, without any reservation for doubt, when time stops, so does all sensation, all perception, all awareness, space, and matter ... ALL phenomena ... even mind itself"

yup
There is nothing without process. And thus time is the most powerfull of all 'dimensions.'
'Processing' is a bland term.. sounds like 'flipping a pancake.'
But literally. ALL is process. Thus i place the law that guides process as the 'word of god'
process happens to law.
where does the law come from.
"We had to get from [here]<--- to --->[here] in order to say it was this wide, or this tall, or this deep, or this big (?). In doing this, we actually conceived phenomena by conceiving its dimension and what better tool than time (the measuring stick whereby all phenomena exists or is said to have existence)."

the stick

occam

PS
We seem to be on same path, there is little i find to disagree with in your posts

PPS

porridge i my case

 

hahahaha words.