Legalizing Psychedelics : A Fool's Logic

Definitely a very complicated issue. I think some sort of middle ground would be the best way, like a license. But it would need to be more difficult to get than a driver's license...maybe you would need one or more references from people who have had a license for a certain number of years, and licenses would be revoked at the slightest offense.

 

So, Mr. Writer you're saying that you think that you should not have access to psychedelics at all? (since I can guarantee you dont take your psychedelics for "medical purposes.") And what kind of psychedelic is going to be used for medical purposes and for what medical purpose? in therapy the effects are too variable to be of substantial use in the field as far as I understand.
The only reason I can think that psychedelics should be illegal is because of ignorant stupid fucks like the kid who gave other kids 2c-e and said hey, go ahead and snort a few massive lines even though we have no idea what the dose is. (how the fuck did they snort 200 mg anyway i could barely snort 20 over like an hour and if they snorted taht much all at once they shoulda thrown up and not been able to keep it all down how the fuck did they do that???) So anyway, there is no reason why responsible people shouldn't be able to use psychedelics imo, its only the stupid fucking morons that dont think shit through whatsoever that makes it illegal for us. And besides as im sure has been pointed out many times, a shit ton of people die from alcohol every year and its legal. One stupid fuck dies on some hallucinogen and its made illegal right away. Anyway I didnt read this whole thread cause its like 50 pages long so hopefully im not repeating too much. People say ohhh its to dangerous to leave acid layin around cause some kid might take it and eat it. Well shit the same is true with guns, toxic chemicals, even a 5 gallon laundry bucket with some water in the bottom can kill a child.

Again Mr. Writer, what medical use are they gonna find for LSD and shit like that? I can't think of any unless it was mental and then its too highly variable to be useful. Fuck. People should be able to have fun if they want to instead of the fuckin DEA saying oh my fucking god people like this chemical shit shit pass legislation make it illegal fasttttttt. Fuck the DEA bunch of stupid pricks with too much power. IF YOU WORK IN THE DEA AND YOUR READING IT DO ME A FAVOR AND TELL THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION TO GO FUCK THEMSELVES HAHAHA.

K thanks

 

Responsibility and brain maturity are not the same thing. Maturity and brain maturity are not the same thing. When you are young your brain is developing new pathways and is very flexible. The older you get, these pathways become more cemented and your brain is much harder to change.
After the age of 18 your brain has done most of its rewiring. If you are doing a bunch of drugs during the wiring phase, shit might not get wired quite as well as it could have been. If you start doin drugs after your shits all wired up, maybe some of the wiring might get dmged but at least its wired up correctly. Of course this is a random analogy that I just made up that may or may not be that good, but I think the idea is right. Doing drugs while your brain is still developing = much worse than doing drugs after your brain has developed. Its not about the persons capacity to act responsibly or in a mature fashion, its about the physical grey matter patterning itself in the correct manner.

 

Hey, mr. Hallucinations....

Dunno HOW many times it has to be said.... if the drugs where legal, kids wouldn't have been after 2C-E, they would have been doing something to get "fucked up", ketamine, coke, amps, opiates, etc.

If they DID want serious psychedelic experiences, they would have done LSD/shrooms more than likely, and if they did 2Cx, they would have known how long the onset is, and they would have known how much to take, and all the rest. Also, it wouldn't have been mixed with MDPV and god knows what else, as the shit you're talking about was, according to a number of reports, as well as anecdotal evidence.

Also, if you don't know what psychedelics treat, you're pretty fucking stupid, considering you named yourself "Hallucinations". Cluster headaches, vasoconstriction or uterine contractions (The latter two with various non psychedelic LSD analogs, or non active DOX analogs, which also exist) mental problems, and a host of other things.

Writer is not DEA, but you sort of read like it yourself.

 

i really doubt anyone in here is DEA. let's refrain from calling people "fucking stupid." although i might not agree fully with hallucinations, i think he made some good points.

 

While some of my psychedelic use has been recreational, some has been decidedly medical, specifically of psychological aid. A single dose of LSD cured a lot of my mental complaints and allowed me to return back to university and finish my degree.

....

www.maps.org

Psychedelics have been and are currently being successfully used in all sorts of therapy, from MDMA and PTSD, to mushrooms and cancer related anxiety.

Making it illegal wouldn't stop this from happening, it would only increase the chances that the 2c-e is impure, and that it funds destructive criminal endeavors like gangs.

http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp3

If LSD is too unstable to use because it can cause a bad trip, then why aren't SSRIs considered "too unstable" for curing depression considering they increase risk of depression and suicide in teens? You either take it all, allow research and therapy on the whole slew of metabolically safe molecules, or you don't allow research on any, because they are "too unstable". We don't have a "cure" button for mental issues, the psychological is too complex a system to be grossly affected like that through one molecule, but we do have many molecules that help a little. And some, like LSD, can potentially help a whole lot more than what we've got going around right now.

 

He came in and said psychedelics should be illegal because of stupid people, that psychedelics don't treat any physical diseases and have no legitimate use in psychotherapy (both complete bullshit) and accused Mr. writer of being DEA.

No, no, I personally think he made NO good points.

 

There is probably the most dramatic growth from ~12-18 but the brain does not 'fully' develop until age ~25.

 

YES!!! A point at which our minds are of a congruent nature for a change

Case in point, my candyflip roller coaster ride beginning at 1:30am and ending around 3:30pm CST started with initial agoraphobic and generalized anxiety issues, plus, an on-again/off-again OCD-like tik, all of which were rapidly vanquished as I let the psychedelic experience guide me along.

I'd gotten back into sikes after a long hiatus away from them, but only after my first introduction to mdma. I didn't know it at the time that I have PTSD, nor did I know it at the time that mdma serves to cure that ailment, but something seemed to make a dramatic shift in my psychological state after that first roll. Around this same time (almost a decade ago) I had first heard of 2cb, and thus my research began, which eventually led me to maps.org, where I was convinced that since I was already showing signs of improvement in my mental health after being issued medicinal marijuana, that I'd had a confirmed therapeutic roll with mdma my first time, and that at maps.org doctors and scholars were advocating the use of psychedelics for intensive psychiatric issues, that I must be on the right path... only once since going down this road have things gotten too hairy to handle, which was an ignorant, stupid decision I have had to live with ever since, an ever so humbling one at that, otherwise, I'd say virtually every trip or roll I've had in the past decade has been therapeutic in some manner. While still being of great recreational value, I can't in good faith deny that I sought out psychedelics initially for any other reason than curiousities as to how they may be applied to my psychological issues. So fun? Hell yeah! And what's wrong with enjoying your medicine after all? Does it always need to be a foul tasting elixer that you gag at the mere thought of ingesting? No! Psychedelics ARE medicinal in every way, especially mescaline and LSD IMO, and anyone who isn't radiant with that day after afterglow and full of unbridled enthusiasm for life, learning, and adventure post-psychedelic experiences I call bullshit on you. Even difficult trips IME have proven to be some of the most useful ones in devising new mechanisms to cope with pyschological issues; so I would still call bullshit if someone were to try and sideskirt the issue of their medicinal value based on a "bad trip" or worse still, "a bad trip that just made things worse"... The ONLY time I believe people have actual bad trips and find themselves in that paradox is when they fight the psychedelic experience and where it takes you within yourself. Yes. That can often be jarring and scary, but learning how to face your fears and accomplishing that within a 24-72 hour period of time is a whole helluva lot more effective than years and dollars wasted on Big Pharma anti-depressents, atypical antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, and all of that rubbish! Fuck a lithium and give me LSD any given day, I'll always choose the LSD and be better off for it (while as an added perk, getting my rocks off at the same time... win/win situation if you ask me!).

This is an excellent point to bring up GB, and I can say from personal experience that using pyschedelics and simultaneously being beyond the demographic of a still-developing brain vs. using psychedelics while all of that wiring and shit is going on upstairs, I notice a DRASTIC difference between the two points in my life. Now, while this may seem to negate what I responded to Writer about, it doesn't. IME, bad trips happen more frequently in youths than in adults, and my theory as to why is that a developing brain isn't fully equipped yet to necessarily take on the challenges and perspectives that psychedelics have to offer. This in turn, within the framework of my theory, leads youths under the influence of psychedelic drugs along a path more prone toward fighting the experience and even in some cases seeing its confrontational nature as aggressive, intimidating, and negative (thus causing a fight or flight mechanism to kick into full gear). So while I whole-heartedly believe that psychedelics are pure magic, I also believe that when youths partake of these ceremonies, that due to the risks of not being psychologically and spiritually equipped to work out a dialogue within yourself during the experience, like with the Native American Church and their peyote rituals, induction of youth culture should be nutured, fed information both of the ups and downs, and when/if a young person so chooses to partake of a psychedelic journey, it's up to US, i.e. the older generations to walk the newer generations through safely to the other side, so that not once should there ever be a necessity toward aborting a trip with benzos, barbs, etc. since the tools to ward off the bad trip blues would be handed down from elders to younger citizens. I'm not saying that by any means that since I would consider myself an elder to some extent that I'm a shaman by any means, but I do believe that the path towards that level of divinity is also something that can only be achieved through the passage of time and through age and experience alike. So I'm also not stating by any means that just because I'm not of shaman status yet, that it's something that I am out of reach of; in fact, provided we all as a psychedelic culture keep feeding the youth while fostering the elders, keeping the cycle alive, I believe that reaching a status of shaman is entirely feasable and possible for everyone.

 

According to some classes I've taken and studies I've read, that age is more like 45-60.

The brain "develops" our whole life.

Below a certain development, of course, you're functioning on a different level.

But beyond there, you're good to go, that development keeps happening but it's your business.

I have no problem with education that cites the truth and the whole truth, so long as it's nothing but the truth. Psychedelics and other drugs can fuck with your brain, I mean, it's what they DO. But again, it's my brain.

Might I again mention, i wouldn't do heroin if it where legal, and I don't think you would either, guerilla. Laws don't make our drug related choices, all they do is lock us up for them. If the locking up isn't changing the choices, but it's changing the safety of those choices in and adverse way, we have to ask, why do we have those laws?

We don't need to be a MAJORITY of the population to have the right to live our lives the way we want, I don't care if it's 1%.... we're a legitimate group of people with legitimate goals in life and legitimate leisure/religious/spiritual/medical use of legitimate chemicals. It's not okay to lock us up, or to penalize us and make our substances dangerous.

In a hundred years (assuming society still exists at all.... maybe there will be fortified citadels to keep out the zombies) I think that persecuting drug users will be seen as being as barbaric as persecuting based on race or religion, if not more so, given that it's a group that trancends those boundaries.

It's really simple: You don't send people to jail because you care about their wellbeing. You don't fine people (people who this society already assumes have money problems because of drugs) because you care about their wellbeing. You don't stigmatize people because you care about their wellbeing. You don't make chemicals that people ingest illegal, and thus impure and potentially dangerous (and impossible to legally verify as otherwise, for a laboratory) because you care about their wellbeing. If you care about them, you call attention to their plight, have therapists help them, have scientists help them, and have their family help them instead of kicking them out for calling heat on the house. AND actually helping people costs a lot less. It's pork for greedy selfish sadistic politicians and law enforcement, and social control for puritan control freaks. That's what the whole drug war amounts to, really.

 

The premise that drug laws exist for the purpose of public health is complete bullshit or alcohol and tobacco would be illegal. They are promoted as public health issues solely to cultivate support from the masses and encourage working class stiffs to be narcs on the idea that they are somehow helping another person by feeding him/her into the life wrecking machinery of the "justice" system because politicians want an easy way to portray themselves as tough on crime so the paranoid masses will vote for them.

The only thing the war on drugs effectively accomplishes is perpetuate a black market the same way alcohol prohibition created a lucrative opportunity for bootleggers.

 

The first step is to tell the truth about drugs - especially about which drugs kill and disable the most people, which drugs are most addictive, which drugs give which benefits, and so on. The problem with this is that cultural and political issues tend to trump facts and logic. In the US in 2000:

Tobacco: 435,000 dead
Alcohol: 85,000 dead (and a whole lot of fucked up families)
Opioids: ~4,000 dead (seems low to me)
NSAIDS (e.g., aspirin): 7,600 dead
Marijuana: 0

The laws are basically crazy. People with PTSD can just gut-up and get over it. People with despair related to terminal disease can pray or whatever. People who think it's their right to cool out or glimpse the Divine can just deal with the consequences. It's really pretty barbaric.

Anyway, that first step is essential. After that I don't know.

And if telling the truth isn't radical enough, what if instead of people's personal actions that harm nobody, the police focused on rapists, burglers, terrorists, purse-snatchers, etc.

Source for #s: http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30 - easily verified at CDC, NIH, etc. sites.

 

First off, I retract my statement that drugs should be illegal because of stupid people, I actually dont think that I agree its analogous to the alcohol problem we have here with youth that isn't present in europe like it is here. I guess what I meant was that its stupid people like him that make the drugs illegal. Secondly, I wasn't accusing Mr. Writer of being DEA .... I was saying if anyone from the DEA happened to read that, they can fuck themselves. I know that its extremely unlikely that anyone from the DEA would read that but I wanted to type it anyway. Thirdly, I never said that psychedelics don't treat diseases mental or physical, I asked what diseases they can treat, which may have seemed like it was implying that they can't treat any. I was and I didn't say they have no legitimate use in psychotherapy I said that from what I understand its to variable to use. For some it may be very useful but to use it in a professional atmosphere may be a liability problem due to the unpredictability of them. From what I understand is not a statement of definitiveness its simply what I understand. And i Know MDMA has uses in couple therapy as well as treating PTSD. I also know that shulgin created many of these drugs with the idea that they could be used in therapy. I have actually personally thought that methylone could be of use in therapy cause it seems to enable me to more freely talk of issues I might normally avoid. I have never had any ++++ experiences (which may include great revelations or such) before either so it makes it harder for me to appreciate their uses in such a fashion.

PS: I named myself hallucinations because I like to hallucinate, and if I could I would like to experience "true hallucinations", which I havn't yet even on salvia or DMT.. How does that imply that I should know all about the medical uses for hallucinogens?

 

I'm surprised this thread is still being discussed. It was started by someone who's first post was about removing basketball hoops on roadsides, then posted "hey guys, where do you get your drugs? I get mine at www.xxx " That thread was promptly pulled. (thanks) He hasn't posted since.
Meanwhile there's all this discussion about legalizing psychedelics, even to the point of getting hostile over differing opinions. :argue:

To me, debating legality of any mind altering substance begins with freedom and libertarian viewpoints. Obviously that's not the world we live in. But looking back on history... if it's not alcohol or tobacco or big pharma drugs, (which have a long history before modern prohibition) then the substance in question is going to have a non conformist label on it. And if its in that category, then its subject to being outlawed as soon as it winds up on the front page.
The powers that be are all too aware of the dozens and dozens of rc's out there. And when incidents happen that are directly or indirectly linked to some substance, public outcry from the ignorant, knee jerk reactionaries leads to scheduling. That's what happened with LSD and now 2C-E.
The best we can do is hope that individuals take personal responsibility to be as safe as possible.
Of course that's like hoping the government will legalize psychedelics.

As it was said a few times here, teach responsibility and be safe. :sunny:

 

I know right? No foolin' yo, it does appear as if our friendly neighborhood narco agent stormed off in a fit of embarrassment after we all called him/her out on all of those fishy posts, lol.

 

What you've seen on bk-MDMA is similar, but not as strong or useful, as what happens on MDMA that allows psycohtherapy.

I do think DEA are reading this thread, pretty sure it was started by one....

And now's ya know.... psychedelics have a host of physical and psychiatric uses.

Some psychedelics are less useful than others, or more useful for different types of therapy. LSD or mushrooms may help with alcoholism, while 2C-B may be used for counseling more delicate people who need a shorter trip but can stand up to some trip, while MDMA may be used for people to unpredictably fucked in the head to safely trip. All of these, in a proper setting, can be manipulated and directed by a therapist who understands the drug and understands the person.

No hard feelings, you just came off as sort of aggressive towards psychedelics and seemed to be saying they have no legitimate use but to hallucinate, which is NOT the case. (although that's fun too... not to mention my innate right as a human)

 

Its cool, I can understand how I came across that way especially at the first part. I wrote it pretty fast and I didn't read it over before I posted which I probably should have. The main reason I posted was because I disagreed with Mr. Writer saying that psychedelics should only be able to be used for medical purposes because I don't see anything wrong with recreational tripping as long as its in a responsible manner that doesn't endanger anyone (especially others).

 

^^^agreed. people should be able to do whatever they want to THEMSELVES, include get high. but writer's comment about psychedelics for medical use is probably more realistic to actually happen.

 

This is why I pointed out that the brain doesn't fully develop until ~ 25. This type of thinking is what really develops from ~18-25 for most and is absolutely pertinent to this type of an issue.

The 'finding myself' or it hasn't happened to me so it can't happen selfish type mindset that a 19 year old may exhibit gives way to a more empathizing viewpoint and the ability to take on/understand multiple viewpoints. Most of us do our initial experimentation/exploration with psychedelics in that 'finding myself' age range though.

 

It may help to look at legal use situations:
- Native American Church
- Research (very limited), including MDMA-assisted therapy for people with PTSD and psilocybin for people with terminal disease.
- Various botanicals such as aya, SP, amanita, etc. - though actually using SP may be illegal.
- Churches that use ayahuasca as a sacrament, e.g., Santo Daime and I think there may be others. Lot of prescribed ritual I hear.
- Anthing else? idk.

So some of the news is good.