Just a thought...

thank you shapeshifter, exactly how i feel, there are so many things that are in reference to what you see on lsd or dmt, science is even on the very edge of discovering oneness.

let me quote a gentleman named dannion brinkley who had a near death experience when he was struck by lightning, "one day i never believed any of this stuff, the next day i was dead, and the day after that i became everything i never believed in. now i dont question if its true, but how it works, not whether theres a life after death, but what are the mechanisms and its purpose, not wheater there is internal life, but the direction and intent of enternal life, not if there is a divine architect and angels, but who are they and whats there purpose? i have seen the heavens."

this is how feel, i no longer question its exsistence, my questions now are the mechanics of it all. when you finnaly see it, youll understand.

 

This could very well be my problem, I simply haven't seen it. I just question whether you have, and are not just taking your wish "I hope theres a heaven" turning it into a belief "there is a heaven" and then into a stated fact "I have seen heaven" without any intermediate real-world steps.

I don't need to, because it doesn't seem to exist. And if it did, I would not need to resort to spirit realms and aliens, I could begin by measuring certain brain waves and body language and imaging brain activity and things like that.

Getting an insight into reality =/= traveling to another dimension. Humans get insights all the time, sometimes into facets of reality which are currently being studied by science (isn't this a truism? all known facets of reality have a scientific discipline attached to them and are being studied.)

Love is a psychological phenomenon and thus uniquely subjective, unlike karma, which is a universal phenomenon and should be observable. That said, I could give some powerful indications of my experience of love: pupil dilation, heart rate, heightened dopamine levels, boosted immune system, more positive outlook, the fact that I'm TELLING YOU "I'm in love!" (assuming I am honest, sane, and sufficiently aged to know what I'm talking about, this is a great indicator)etc, etc. These are all things I can point to and say "There. That is one aspect of what makes up "love". Each one on its own may not be conclusive, but taken all together, they describe a phenomenon we call "love". "

I'll tell you how I don't explain NDE. Or any other phenomena for that matter. By jumping to the least likely explanation. I'm not a fan of that. When a new set of facts is presented to me, I attempt to apply my current analytical model of the universe to them. NDEs should have a thread of their own because there are many facets to them that are interesting enough to discuss, but one thing for your consideration is that NDEs and OOBEs are very similar, and OOBEs can be easily and readily induced by Ketamine. Food for thought. Hint: brain activity

Because people all around the world have essentially the same brain as you or I or Tom or Mary? We all have the same mental machinery, barring personal differences.

My feelings are just that; feelings. They have their place. Their place is not in the "proof" pedestal. That is reserved for . . . proof. Likewise, I do not put "proof" in my feelings pedestal. Everything has a place in the process of mental life, and I recommend you reevaluate where you have placed your various mental aspects. Are your feelings superceding your proof in situations where proof should be the most important? My realizations are only as good as their applicability to the real world. I have had amazing realizations on marijuana that I later discovered were somewhat idiotic. I did not cling to them, because they were my "precious realizations", I tossed them as the useless mental detritus that they were. I have had powerful realizations on LSD, which stay with me to this day, because they are universally applicable. Should they ever be shown to be useless or false in the future, I will discard them. Can you explain to me why you don't do the same? Why, when a realization you have is shown to fail regularly when applied to the real world, you still cling to it? Why not just be a mormon? At least they have a cool book, or something.

This is really an offbeat question . . .

1. why does it matter?

2. why do you assume i have a motive?

3. what if my motive was "I want to overdose and im looking for the right drug to die on"

4. i started taking drugs to get fucked up, but have since discovered their immense mental utility.

Why do I bother falling in love, since it's just a chemical reaction in my brain manifest by powerful subjective feelings. It's not measurable outside myself. I should stop falling in love. Why do I bother riding roller coasters? It just raises my heart rate and makes me happy and excited. All those things are just in my head, a product of my imagination. Therefore riding a roller coaster is false.

Do you see the fallacy you are making? You are saying "It's just in your head". JUST?! JUST???!!! If I had a machine that could instantly induce severe schizophrenia, and I hooked you up to it and pressed the button, do you think you would look at me, laugh, and say "Is that it? Lewl, i'm fine, it's just in my head". How about if I induced a cripping pain in your entire body that rated 10/10, indefinetely. Would this pain be "false" to you? When THC crystals interact with your neuronal pathways, is the fact that it's "just in your brain" making the experience any less amazing, fun, or enjoyable????

I think you have a very deep misconception and even BIAS against your own brain. Your brain is where it's at my friend. Even from a spiritual standpoint, one cannot help but feel that the gateway between soul and body must be the brain.

How you have these misconceptions shocks me.

LOL, those are not the same things. You can have a chemical reaction in your brain that generates powerful thoughts which turn out to be accurate and useful realizations. There is no contradiction there.

Because you remember your experience while high and assume it applies to the real world, so it does, because you assume it does. But try assuming it doesn't. Try assuming that until you can somehow verify what you felt while high on the sober plane, it must remain "just something I thought while high". Haven't you ever thought of some stupid shit while high? we all have. Crap that you think is so amazing at the time but the next day when you look at what you've written down you just shake your head and laugh because it's so asinine and superfluous to reality that it doesn't even warrant second consideration.

Which organ of your body is most responsible for your thoughts? Is it your spleen? Your kidney? You left ankle? You brain? Yes, your brain. We can readily link the Brain as being the organ in charge of Thought. Thus, when we affect the brain, we affect thought. This is easily done with any drug you like. Let's pick Cocaine as it has no psychedelic effects. When people do cocaine, they experience an ego boost. Isn't that amazing? A white powder that can boost your ego tremendously. But cocaine is not some alien-communication drug. It just gives you euphoria and energy and ego boost. How is this done? Well, we COULD just label it as a drug that transports you to another dimension and then aliens make you feel better about yourself and then bring you back, all in a split second and you don't remember any of it, or we could just do an MRI on someone who's snorting cocaine and see that the chemicals that we know are responsible for feelings of ego and power are being boosted while under the effects of cocaine. Why you pick the former approach is boggling.

I highly doubt it's because you smoked some brown gunk and it magically transported your "soul" to "another dimension" populated by "aliens". Sorry but you're on the loosing end of the credibility meter.

:cheers2:

 

what makes you so sure!

p.s the quote in your signature is great

 

lol @ 'why would you take drugs if you dont think it is opening you up to supernatural phenomenon'

most people would say that is a reason to NOT take these drugs!

but anyway, I don't live as if supernatural stuff exists. it only seems to happen during dreamlike states/fragmented consciousness. but that doesnt mean psychedelic drugs arent amazing. it doesnt mean you cant learn from them. there is in fact no connection there at all because being in your mind does not make something any less meaningful. in fact it makes it moreso. dreams, trips, imagination, this stuff is the most meaning rich substance in the universe.

i am curious though because i consider KARMA to be one of the most imaginary forces of all the supernatural phenomeno and i have no idea why mr writer believes in karma but not the other stuff

 

What! Reread my posts, they are all about how I DO NOT believe in karma to me it's simply an application of mythology to a poor sample of reality.

Hell yes :cheers2:

 

All I can say to you is that until you expirience something, it is very difficult to explain it with the words, and there is no point for me to write more words because you can't understand where I am comming from. That doesn't make you or me less or more important, we are still all one(if you can dig at least that).
Peace and love!

 

hell, even once you experience things.. its hard to put into words.

and yer i totally misread you, writer, sorry

 

Although I said there is no point in writing more words, I will try to “think loudly” so you can maybe see where I am coming from.
A human must have faith in many things, otherwise it would stop doing anything. We all believe that water that we drink is clean enough that we won’t die from it. We all believe that there is another side of Earth although not all of us visited it. We all believe that Nikola Tesla was existing, although we never met him.
We were given sense of logic so we can believe things that we can’t see, as much as not to be tricked with what we can see. Not only that human must believe in many things, it goes much deeper – to trust yourself or God (I called it God here, but you can give that power any name you want). But are we as human reliable enough to trust our self? How many times we cheated to our self? How many times we were uninterested in what was the wisest thing to do for us? How many times we were helpless to achieve our own goals? In choosing what we believe, didn’t we made the biggest illogical thing when we chosen to believe in our sinful self, instead of believing in “unmistakable” God? I am not saying that I believe in aliens and all that, I believe in simple rule: Don’t do to others what you don’t want to be done to yourself. Universal love, unlimited and so beautiful, that is my religion, and whatever I did from love, it never failed. And it never will. That is what I call God, and I met Her personally and until you feel its beauty, it is hard to believe in Her. You will rather believe in yourself who failed so many times to put your personal needs in front of somebody’s pain. Is that your logic? Is it much easier to fulfill your personal sick needs than to believe that there is something much bigger than us?
“I am not that weak to believe in God!” – that is exactly what weak person will think who doesn’t have strength to face the truth about his own limitations. Without God, human does not have the ability to understand real character of love, it looks to them foreign and boring, and that’s why you have so many divorces and cheating of your partner and yourself. That’s why people are hurting each other and the whole environment. Without fate, you don’t have wish to change your desires and become a better man every single morning when you wake up, and if you don’t wake up better than yesterday, you are wasting your time in this reality. Person who is separated from God is exactly the same person who is looking for objects of psychological security in this or that, but the person who is one with God is the one who felt the change of his hearts desires, and his life is based on true love and not the psychological needs or selfishness. Unfortunately, plenty of people who are even searching for God, are asking through their needs where is the Gods truth, instead of asking God herself. Because of that, people like you Mr. Writer explain to themselves that no God or Karma or anything else exist, but your needs justified by your logic, which is hiding behind the fear of changing and losing all the “conformity” that you have. You will always measure your happiness through physical things, “or the things you can see or prove”, and no matter what you have, you will be searching for more, because those things can’t bring you true happiness and love. Until you start having some faith, you might not understand still what I am talking about, but that is your path that you are walking on, and I cannot force anybody to walk the same path as I do, but I can only hope that you will find at least same happiness that I found.
You can still call that “chemical reaction in my brain”, but it leads me to faith and all the realizations I discovered, and when I transferred all of that in my everyday life, my life became like living the dream.
I cannot be more happy and great full for having a chance to meet The God and live by Her rules.
Once again, I wish you all the love and happiness!

 

bro.. everything is a chemical reaction in the brain.. so there is no point suggesting that 'a chemical reaction in the brain' makes anything less reasonable NOR does it discount god.
the point is that if it is a chemical reaction in thebrain then it could be REAL or NOt REAL or whatever and it doesnt really matter.

God can be a figament of imagination and still be JUST as important.

at any rate, I think, from all my experiences, that the idea of one god is becoming less and less plausible. although the concept of god or a higher power becomes more 'probable' with the experiences of psychedelics, the 'unity' of the universe does not have to actually imply that everything IS god. every drug has some -systematic- effect, and I consider that the unity of the universe is definately a systematic effect of psychedelics because it effects the parts of the brian which deal with border and objects and our place amongst it all.
but still, the realisations we have while on psychedelics are very real - even if they are just realisations about our virtual world and not the real world (which we might not be able to have any realisations about at all anyway). the idea that god exists comes to me from the idea that it is unlikely that my biological mind can create such amazing stuff all by itself. but that is no logical standing ground at all...

but the unfortunate thing about logic.. well logic is out only means of proving anything definately..

which makes it a circular argument / begging the question

because in order to prove logic.. you would need logic.

 

what about, if i could prove, logically, that the chemical reactions in our brain, are unverifiable?

"Man is conditioned right from the beginning of his life that the world he lives in has an absolute material reality. So he grows up under the effect of this conditioning and builds his entire life on this viewpoint. The findings of modern science, however, have revealed a completely different and significant reality than what is presumed.

All the information that we have about the external world is conveyed to us by our five senses. The world we know of consists of what our eyes see, our ears hear, our noses smell, our tongues taste, and our hands feel. Man is dependent on only those five senses since birth. That is why he knows the "external world" only the way it is presented by these senses. Yet, scientific research carried out on our senses has revealed very different facts about what we call the "external world", and these facts have brought to light a very important secret about matter which makes up the external world.

Contemporary thinker Frederick Vester explains the point that science has reached on this subject:
Statements of some scientists posing that "man is an image, everything experienced is temporary and deceptive, and this universe is a shadow", seems to be proven by science in our day. In order to better grasp this secret behind matter, let us be reminded of our information about our "sense of sight" which provides us with the most extensive information about the external world.

The act of seeing is realised progressively. At the instance of seeing, light clusters called photons travel from the object to the eye and pass through the eye lens where they are refracted and focus on the retina at the back of the eye. Here, rays are turned into electrical signals and then transmitted by neurons to the centre of vision at the back of the brain. Our sight actually takes place in this centre in the brain. All the images we view in our lives and all the events we experience are actually experienced in this tiny and dark place. The boundless landscape you see when you gaze at the horizon actually fit into this place of a few cubic centimeters. Now, let us reconsider this information more carefully. When we say, "we see", we actually see the "effect" the rays reaching our eyes form in our brain by being converted into electric signals. When we say, "we see", we actually observe the electrical signals in our brain. By the way, there is another point that has to be kept in mind; the brain is sealed to light and its interior is absolutely dark. Therefore, it is never possible for the brain to contact with light itself. We can explain this interesting situation with an example: Let us suppose that in front of us there is a burning candle and we view its light. During this period when we view the candle's light, the inside of our skull and our brain are in absolute darkness. The light of the candle never illuminates our brain and our centre of vision. However, we watch a colourful and bright world inside our dark brain.

The same situation applies to all our other senses. Sound, touch, taste and smell are all perceived in the brain as electrical signals. Therefore, our brains, throughout our lives, do not confront the "original" of the matter existing outside us, but rather an electrical copy of it formed inside our brain. It is at this point that we are misled by assuming these copies are instances of real matter outside us. These physical facts make us come to an indisputable conclusion. Everything we see, touch, hear, and perceive as "matter", "the world" or "the universe" is only electrical signals in our brain. For instance, we see a bird in the external world. In real, this bird is not in the external world, but in our brain. The light particles reflecting from the bird reach our eye and there they are converted into electrical signals. These signals are transmitted by neurons to the centre of vision in the brain. The bird we see is in fact the electric signals in our brain. If the sight nerves travelling to the brain were disconnected, the image of the bird would suddenly disappear. In the same manner, the bird sounds we hear are also in our brain. If the nerve travelling from the ear to the brain was disconnected, there would be no sound left. Put simply, the bird, the shape of which we see, and the sound of which we hear is nothing but the brain's interpretation of electrical signals.

Another point to be considered here is the sense of distance. For example the distance between you and this screen, is nothing but a feeling of space formed in your brain. Also, objects that seem to be very distant in one person's view are actually images clustered at one spot in the brain. For instance, someone who watches the stars in the sky assumes that they are millions of light-years away from him. Yet, the stars are right inside himself, at the centre of vision of his brain.

So far, we have been speaking repeatedly of an "external world" and a world of perceptions formed in our brain, the latter of which is what we see. However, since we can never actually reach the "external world", how can we be sure that such a world really exists? Definitely we cannot. The only reality we cope with is the world of perceptions we live within our minds. We believe in the existence of objects just because we see and touch them, and they are reflected to us by our perceptions. However, our perceptions are only ideas in our mind. Thus, objects we captivate by perceptions are nothing but ideas, and these ideas are essentially in nowhere but our mind… Since all these exist only in the mind, then it means that we are beguiled by deceptions when we imagine the universe and things to have an existence outside the mind. To imagine matter to have an existence outside the mind is indeed a deception. The perceptions we observe may well be coming from an "artificial" source.

First, let us suppose that we could take our brain out of our body and keep it alive in a glass jar. Let us put a computer in which all kinds of information can be recorded. Finally, let us transmit the electrical signals of all the data related to a setting such as image, sound and smell to this computer. Let us connect this computer to the sensory centres in our brain with electrodes and send the pre-recorded data to our brain. As our brain perceives these signals, it will see and live the setting correlated with these. From this computer, we can send to our brain also signals pertaining to our own image. For instance, we can send to our brain the electrical correlates of such senses as sight, hearing and touch that we perceive while we sit at a desk. In that state, our brain would think itself as a businessman sitting in his office.

This imaginary world would continue as long as the stimulations keep coming from the computer. We would never realise that we only consist of a brain. It is indeed very easy for us to be deceived into believing perceptions without any material correlates to be real. This is just what happens in our dreams.

For you, reality is all that can be touched with the hand and seen with the eye. In your dreams you can also "touch with your hand and see with your eye", but in reality you have neither hand nor eye, nor is there anything that can be touched or seen. However, taking what you perceive in your dream to be material realities, you are simply deceived. For example a person deeply asleep in his bed may see himself in an entirely different world in his dream. He may dream that he is a pilot and command a giant aeroplane, and even spend a great effort to command the plane. In fact, this person has not taken even one step away from his bed. In his dreams, he may visit different settings and meet with friends, have a chat with them, eat and drink together. Even though these are mere perceptions that have no material correlations, they are experienced in a completely realistic manner. It is only when the person awakes from his dream that he realises all were only perceptions.

If we are able to live easily in an unreal world during our dreams, the same thing can equally be true for the world we live in. When we wake up from a dream, there is no logical reason for not thinking that we have entered a longer dream that we call real life. The reason we consider our dream to be fancy and the world as real is nothing but a product of our habits and prejudices. This suggests that we may well be awoken from the life on earth which we think we are living right now, just as we are awoken from a dream.

After all these physical facts arises the question of primary importance. If all physical events that we know are intrinsically perceptions, what about our brain? Since our brain is a matter just like our arms, legs, or any other object, it also must be a perception just like all other objects. An example will illuminate the subject further. Let us think that we extend the nerves reaching our brain and put it outside our head where we can see it with our eyes. In this case, we would be able to see also our brain and touch it with our fingers. This way we can understand that our brain is also nothing but a perception formed by the senses of vision and touch."

so, if our brain is essentially just a perception, then so are the chemicals within it. how can someting that doesn't exist be resposible for changes in consciousness? it isn't, our souls are; and our souls, are part of god.

 

ever read the book flatlanders? its about 2D people who live in there 2D world and have no idea what above and below is, until one day they find out about 3D and everything they thought they new went to shit.

pretty much the same thing with us, we think were the big dogs in our bitchin 3D world, we think we got all the mechanics of reality down pat. haha those 4 and 5Ders are just waiting for the chance they get to shit on our idea of reality works.

how the universe works is more complex then you can ever imagine. im talking about billions and billions and billions of dimension all working together in one complex system. and people still question whether there is other life in our universe. why are we still so narrow minded. will our egos be crushed to death if were not the almighty and all powerful. cause in the scheme of things were not even a grain of sand in the larger picture.

 

its not right for me to try to make you jump to a conclusion. everyone has there opinion. im just saying, try not to just discard the possibility of a heaven or a god like place. i was atheist for a good long while, and literally during one trip of mine, i went from complete atheist, to like spiritualist. all i had to do was see it. look at the subject with an open mind. the truth always finds its way out.

 

I went from complete atheist to spiritualist as well in my last trip, but spiritualism does not imply God. I still do not believe there is something outside from or apart from everything which has created and controls everything. "everything" here is practically a holy term for me now. But that doesn't mean an anthropomorphic super-daddy exists

 

well, just like spiritualism does not imply God (so you say), God does not imply anthropomorphic super-daddy.

 

god is the last thing from a anthropomorphic super-daddy. his true form is completely beyond our intellect. god is this super-eternal-consciousness-system-thing, he is made up of individual conscious pieces, we are those individuated conscious pieces, we make up god. thats why god is all knowing because he is everything, we are like droplets of water making up an ocean, were the droplets, god is the ocean, god is the collected consciousness. he is using us and these holographic universes to learn more about himself, so they he may evolve his true form into perfect love. but really us and him are one in the same.

 

I agreed with everything and was going to say "Then why call it "god"?" until you said this. How exactly do you know this is what "god" is doing? he told you?

 

well on 10 hits of acid, the theme of the trip was mostly discovering what god is, and what he does, and how he loves. i talked to god in that trip, or a god, of some sort. there are gods below "the god". plus ive done a lot of homework on the subject.

but basically everything is evolving, even god. what are we evolving towards? organization of energy, everything is organizing there energy so they have more energy to use. love in the broadest sense is very very organized energy that can be used for purposeful intent. but as you probably already know, im not talking about dopey romantic love, im talking about the purest unconditional love, so great it is beyond our capacity of knowing, it can only be felt, experienced.

technical - lowering system entropy towards synergy

non technical - learning to become love because love is perfection

the second law of thermodynamics states the lower entropy concept.

and the fundamental process states that evolution must explore all possibilitys, thats why we have billions and billions of dimensions

 

god = school, and the big brains behind the school (like super attendent or something)

npmr = 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade, etc etc. plus the intent and goals of what youll be learning throughout school, teachers helping with intent

pmr = the classroom, materials, objects, and people you learn from

students have control in there local activities and experiences in the classroom

teachers (the lower gods) help shape the intent and goals of the students so they can get where there going

sometimes students dont have any power in the higher intent of education, but some do, some know some teachers and allowed in the higher levels, to help the intent of the whole school

one day you might grow enough to be head of the school, maybe even one day meet other schools, completely separate from your school (maybe one day you rejoin with this god conscious and meet entirely other god consciouses that you could never be apart of only interact with)