Jesus Christ

:smash:

 

Would it be different for an angel since they are in Heaven because I think that is what neodude is hinting at that. If you're in Heaven how can you sin given the circumstances?

How is it possible to be in eternal paradise with God and want to rebel as Satan and his angels have done?

 

God creates.
God gives free will.

These two statements are already in contradiction for me, but I'll just keep going.

What is the point of giving free will if you ultimately only allow one choice? It makes absolutely no sense for someone to say, behold, you can do anything you want, but if you don't do what I tell you to do, I have created an everlasting hellfire for you.
That isn't free will. It's blackmail lol.

If God allows you any choice you please, how can you make the wrong one?
It's the same thing in your car example. You have no stipulations or control over what I do with the car; you gave it to me and now I can do whatever I want with it. My decision isn't dependent upon some sort of moralistic interpretation of whether I decide to kill with it or not.

Now, for an accurate analogy, Olderwaterbrother, how about this.
You create the entire universe, and you create me and everyone else and cars. You then give me a car. I then go kill people with it. Whose fault is it that people died, really?

 

"I have created an everlasting hellfire for you."

There is no hellfire. Hell is the grave. Check out Psalms. When it talks about Sheol being like a cloud that vanishes, what do you think? What is like a vanishing cloud?

 

Ok, so, do what I tell you or you don't exist.
That's even less free will than I even originally said and just goes to prove my point even further.

 

It goes back to the fall. The fall is why we die.

You are leaving out the part where everyone is eventually brought back from death.

A trillion and one options to choose from, all that God asks is that we do not use our free will to cause harm.

 

I'm trying to have a strictly philosophical discussion and not include all of the mythology.

 

"You then give me a car. I then go kill people with it. Whose fault is it that people died, really?"

The person that used the car to kill instead of its original purpose; to drive.

 

Are you saying cars have inherent purposes? They have intended purposes, but that by no means gives them some fundamental attribute.
What is the inherent purpose in anything?

You see, ultimately, whatever happens in existence can only be blamed on one - the one who created it.

 

Are the inventors of computers at fault if someone decides to take a computer and smash it over someone's head to kill them?

Does the computer have an inherent purpose? I think so. It's purpose is to compute, otherwise it would not have been built.

I don't know what the inherent purpose in anything is myself, honestly. I see life as a dance, just as long as our dance doesn't get people kicked in the head or lead us down a ditch, then it's all good.

 

This is the same old tired argument that this forum has seen over and over again.
Are the inventors of computers at fault if someone kills with their computer?
No.
Are the inventors of computers all-powerful and all-knowing?
No.
If the inventors of computers were all-powerful and all-knowing, would they be "at fault" if someone used their computer to kill?
Yes.

Also, big different in "inherent purpose" and "intended purpose".

 

LMAO I like the way you think.

But I disagree with blaming the Creator for problems caused by His children. Should a parent be given life in prison if their child grows up and commits murder? The existence of God doesn't take away individual responsibility.

I'm with you on the "free will = there's no such thing as improper acts in the eyes of God" argument tho.

 

Well, if you want to get technical about it, I don't think problems even exist, only perceived problems.

 

These issues of free will and determinism are admittedly hard to get our minds around. The closest analogy I can think of is QM and unpredictablity--Heisenberg's uncertainty principle--assuming, as most physicists do, that's a function of inherent indeterminacy and not just our limitations in predicting things. I see no reason why God couldn't build that into the system, which would mean limiting His own abiltity to predict and control. I also don't think that would be inconsistent with omnipotence and omniscience, since He chose the self-limitation. So he gave us the keys, and the rules for safe driving. Over to us.

 

Jesus SUCKS ! ! !
:reddevil:

BTW, how do you make your own custom avatars? im new.. and where is the lesbian forum i cant freakin find it

 

Because that whole train of thought seems entirely pointless to me.
It seems like someone started out with the conviction that free will exists, and then tried to find a way to justify it in reconciliation with their belief in a God that is all powerful and all knowing.

 

No disrespect Neo but anyone speaking on God who has never had a spiritual awakening just ends up sounding foolish. God is real. Research spirituality and find the Truth for yourself. I personally did research after I already connected with God so I dunno how effective that will be but I'm sure it'd be a lot better than arguing with what everyone else says.

We get it, you think the idea of God is some shit people came up with on their own for whatever reason. That's what you think, among many other things, but what exactly do you know?

I mean you can keep arguing but you're not changing anything. Some know, some believe, the rest are lost. Science has been trying to dispute the idea of God for centuries only to end up pretty much verifying the existence of God.

 

Haha, I like the cut of your Jib son!

 

What exactly do you know?

What knowledge are you able to access that the rest of us cannot?

 

To me one of the most frustrating things for a believer in these discussions is the fact that it's not just a matter of logic, evidence, and left-brained activity going on, although I think those have to be there. There's a hell of a lot of intuition involved, and intuitive judgments are understandably viewed with suspicion by those who don't have them, whether by temperment or training. Interestingly, atheist Sam Harris sees the value of intuition, although he also sees its limitations as a guide for understanding reality. You talk about the Inner Light, a spiritual awakening, etc., and I can relate to you immediately, because that's my experience as well. I can't prove it's not a delusion, or a function of brain chemistry, or an overdeveloped right brain hemisphere. I've sometimes used the somewhat sacriligious example that when you're enjoying sex with a significant other it spoils the mood to ask how can I be sure (s)he exists. Atheists, agnostics, and traditional Christians (to me they seem to have a lot in common) are understandably suspicious of mysticism, and I do think it needs to be kept on the tight leash of rigorous analytical scrutiny. That's the great thing about these forums. We can get input from both perspectives; the yin and yang of the tao, so to speak.