israeli products,fruits etc....

Mai, I don't have much time online today, so I'm going to give you some links to consider. All Jewish sites. All anti zionist.

They give the technical objections to zionism I think you need to hear from their point of view rather than my own.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

It wasn't until the internet that such opposition to zionism ever had any chance of being heard. I beg you give these sites your attention.





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xexon, as you can see from my previous post to guy, I'm in perfect agreement with you that Zionism is opposed to Judaism, but what you must remember is that most Israelies were born after the state of Israel was established which means they had no say in whether a Jewish state should be established or not. It is like discussing whether the existence of Canada is moral or not. It's probably not , but are all Canadians going to leave now? and where to? Or telling Brazilians that their country's existence is immoral because they have taken the natives lands... Again, for most Israelis the fight against Palestine is a matter of self preservation. Any suggestion that Israel will be abolished or turned into a union with Palestine (an idea that most Palestinians reject anyway) will not be popular with them. This is not because of their Zionist ethics but because of their survival instincts. I am not debating you on whether it was right for Jews to settle in Israel. The fact is that they did. Where do we go from here is what I ask and what those who are interested in the solving of this conflict should ask as well. What I object to is the simplification of this conflict by taking one side and claiming that the other side is to blame . Not only this is wrong , but it is detrimental to finding a solution. Both sides have made many mistakes and committed atrocities (I should say 'all sides' cause this conflict is not limited to Israel and Palestine). We need to work on a solution and not point fingers. Middle Easterners are experts at blaming others for their misery , it didn't get them very far. They should start blaming others and start taking the road of compromise and forgiveness -there is no other choice .

 

yes

 

My whole point is Israel must be united as one people.

The idea of a Jewish "homeland" is acceptable up to a point. Israel is the holy land for many people besides Jews. It must be shared. The current people in power are criminals. They thrive on division and war posturing. They also have nuclear weapons at their disposal.

They are dangerous to the stability of world peace.

You must understand something about me. I call things as I see them. This makes many people uncomfortable.

I do what I do with no allegiance to anyone other than the human race. I could care less of a person's religious beliefs or the color of their skin. Such detail is not important to me other than for the sake of classification.

When my spotlight falls on some people, they get defensive.

I'm willing to entertain their explanations.

The explanation of human rights violations in Israel against non Jews is well documented in the 21st century. People got cameras and internet now. They don't have to depend on a controlled media anymore.

They can get the word out that Israel as a zionist state, is also an apartheid state practicing genocide against non Jews. They do this with the financing and approval of the United States. We are guilty by association.

We punish other countries for these kinds of violations. We need to punish Israel with the same lash we use for others. If for no other reason that to wake their population up and let them know the lateness of the hour.

Sanctions are in order. That includes the boycotting of Israeli goods.

Boycott Israeli goods.



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the problems with boycotts is that it hurts people who aren't doing silly things, ie it hits the lower rung of society first. you alienate normal people and leave the hate mongers to sow their seed widely and heavily.

turning the money tap off hits the problem directly by shutting the food source off to the people who are causing the problem in the first place. the longer you support stupidity and stupid people the worse things get. you need only ask the americans about this.

the people feeding off the problem do little or no real work, they need new cash to continue their lifestyle, they feed off chaos and hate, the more chaos the stronger they become. with the money tap turned off they whither, normal people are not affected because business goes on as normal. the best thing the hate mongers can do is perish.

 

I'm surprised that you offer this suggestion. The were many solutions suggested for the Middle East conflict but this must be the worst , for the following reasons:
1. Most Israelis and most Palestinians do not support this idea. Most Israelis would like a Palestian state besides Israel and most Palestine would like the whole area to be Palestine (without the Jews- this is specified in the Hamas agenda as well as the Fatah , Google it) . Beside a very small minority of Israeli leftists nobody supports this idea , how can it be implemented then ?
2. There is absolutely no way the Jews and the Palestinians can live together in one country unless it is in a state of very strict dictatorship which I'm sure you don't support. Look at Yugoslavia, Iraq and any African country – different ethnicities can rarely live together peacefully, especially when they have such a history of animosity. This is further compounded by the fact that Jews are significantly richer than the Palestinians, Israel is a modern technologically advanced country and Palestine is a backwards poverty stricken area, you think they can peacefully unite? The unification of Israel and Palestine would mean bloodshed of Darfur proportions , is that what you wish for? The people of Israel and Palestine certainly don't wish for it and they know better than to risk their families lives of such a dangerous idealist experiment with human lives.
3.The unification of Israel and Palestine is not supported by Syria , Iran , Egypt and Jordan who are very important sides in the conflict. There can be no solution without Syria and to a lesser extent Egypt and the Arab world. This is not an isolated conflict , it takes place within a larger context of the Middle East.

I think you should be careful with your words. Firstly the Palestinians are not citizens of Israel and Palestine is not a part of Israel. In fact the arab citizens of Israel (those that live within “Israel” - not in Gaza or the 'Occupied Territories' ) enjoy human rights unknown in the Middle East. As I mentioned before – Israeli Arabs enjoy a very high standard of living, can vote and get elected to the government , have freedom of religion and can choose their own way of life. Don't confuse Israeli Arabs with Palestinian Arabs.
Genocide is a strong word. It means a conscious attempt to annihilate another ethnicity. This is certainly not what is happening there. Not every act of violence is genocide

Again, I am not saying that Israel is not doing many horrible things. It most certainly does. Israel is in a state of war with Palestine and a group of Arab countries. Do you know of a war without atrocities?
But by focusing exclusively on the atrocities of one side you are in effect prevent a real solution from materializing. If you really wish to help the Palestinians and not just clear your own conscious then please try to look for a feasible solution and not some idealist utopia

 

guy, are you serious ,or is this some kind of joke?



What is your scenario?

1.American money stops flowing into Israel. Israelis suddenly change their perceptions of the Middle East. 50 years of fear and animosity towards the Arabs magically disappear and everybody unanimously vote for the extreme left which until now enjoyed about 5% of the votes. The extremist in the settlements convert to hare Krishna and decide to spend their lives cultivating organic vegetables in the desert. How likely is that?
2.American money stops flowing into Israel. Palestinians suddenly change their violent ways adopting Ghandi style ahimsa resistance – peaceful marches and hunger strikes.

Actually it's most likely to be like this:

3.Money stops flowing into Israel, the quality of the Israeli army is going down. The Palestine and Syria (and possibly Iran) decide this is the perfect opportunity to attack. A war ensues in which millions die and the Middle East is left in ruins.

 

After having grown up in the the old south, and seeing cruelty inflicted on people "different" than myself, I have no tolerance for racism. None. Nada.

What you are suggesting is the continuation of an aparththeid state. Its no different than the whites only drinking fountains or the side entrace to the doctor's clinic. Your system does NOT work.

People cannot keep their individual identities if they wish to unite the country. They can keep them after the fact, the way we do here. But first and foremost, one must be an Israeli, then and Israeli Jew or Israeli Muslim, etc. This can be taught.

Jews are followers of a religion and nothing more. They no more deserve a homeland than Catholics or Hindus. Israel as a "Jewish" homeland is unacceptable. The land must be shared by all who inhabit it. This Jewish superiority movement must end.

And the long enduring, well documented, state sponsored terrorism against a people continues.

At least until US public opinion can be turned by exposing the zionist agenda for what it is. Then the funding for it will end.

Until it does, Boycott Israel for the apartheid state it is.

Until an Arab can walk down any street in Israel and not met up with an armed goon squad, Israel deserves nothing of US aid.

Boycott Israel.



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for the people wnting to end israel, where are all the isrealis suppose to go now after the combined efforts of most of europe created the israeli state? i mean, purely from a practical standpoint, where are the jews supposed to go now? the people who've been born in israel have every right to be there. i may not be purely content with their handling of the palestinian problem, but the israelis are the only ones keeping them in their uncomfortable little patch of land.

 

jews aren't just followers of a religion, though. many israelis aren't particularly religious at all. just like any other group of people.

 

Sorry, Jews are followers of a religion and nothing more.

They may have a highly developed social culture, as you would expect after 5000 years, but they are still just followers of a religion and nothing more.

I don't support religious states.

The Jews don't have to go anywhere. Neither do the Palestinians. They need to be Israelis, and nothing more.

And until they learn that, they should be boycotted for the state sanctioned violence against non Jews. I keep hearing it's a democratic country. That means the people bear the burden of boycott.

Until they are willing to change.


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well, your mind is made up about jews, then. no point arguing. it would be nice to just have them all be israelis, i agree. i figure saudi arabia is just as disgusting, in terms of being a religious state, i suppose.

 

My mind is made up according to the truth of the matter. The truth of the matter is Jews are followers of a religion and that's where it ends. They are not a "people". Semite or not.

I have choice words for the Vatican and Saudi Arabia as well, but for different reasons.

Religious states are a thing of the past. We need to bury they ones that are left and turn away from this sad chapter of human history.


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Jews doing their part.

http://www.ijsn.net/en/ijsn/C15/


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xenon, i don't think you are reading what I'm wrting
again - both Israelis and Palestians do not want to share a country- why do keep suggesting they do?
Can you explain why you are so interested in a civil war between Israelis and Palestinians?



Again , please pay attention - Palestians are not citizens of Israel, they have a Jordanian passport (those in Gaza should have had an Egyptian one except Egypt never gave them any rights cause it treated them like second class citizens).They do not want to be citizens of Israel and Israel doesn't want them to be citizens. You clearly have a very limited understanding of the situation. There is nothing wrong with not knowing , but I think you should tone down your language and do some more research.

so who according to your philosophy "deserves" a country?

 

How do you know they don't want to share a country? I don't see that they have a choice. The UN made the biggest mistake of it's history in creating Israel and the world has had to suffer with it ever since.

It's rather plain that things cannot be allowed to continue as is. Some of those Palestinians have been on their land for hundreds of years. Do propose to remove them? They've been there far longer than all the immigrants that have displaced them off their land and destroyed their culture.

Whats going on in Israel is WRONG, and the US supports it.

Zionism is whats causing the rift between Jew and Arab, not the religions involved in it. End zionism, and watch Israel bloom.

Support this rotten system, and your children's children will curse your name for not acting to tear this apartheid state down.

And that's exactly what Israel is. A racist apartheid state.

Paid for with my taxpayer dollars. It needs to stop. I'm busy convincing my countrymen to do just that.

Boycott Israel.



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Read about zionism, and it's racist ideas.

http://zionismexplained.org/


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I know that because :
a) both Israel and Palestine are democracies, they both keep voting for separation
b) I have been to the Middle East ,in fact spend many years there

No I propose to establish a country for them. If you read my posts seriously you will see that I keep suggesting that,

What does it mean in practicle terms 'end zionism'?

Again you have very little understanding of the Middle East .As far as the Hamas is concerned ,they want all the Jews out. You do know about the Hamas , do you? You heard of the Fatah ,right?
The Palestinians do not care about Zionism , they will kill all the Jews if they could. You only need to visit Gaza or Ramalah and talk to some of these peopel. Perhaps you can read the Hamas agenda or the Fatah.




Do you read the news? You know about Yugoslavia? Rewanda? Iraq? Lebanon?

 

Let me approach this from a different angle


You keep saying that Israel is an apartheid state . This is based on a flawed understanding of the situation. If I'm not mistaken you believe that what is now Israel used to be a place peacefully inhabited by Arabs ,then taken over by Zionism Jews who created a state in which Arabs are second hand citizens. Not only this view is over simplified but it is ultimately wrong.
As I have mentioned several times – the Palestinians are not citizens of Israel , hence Israel cannot be called an apartheid state. The Palestinians are not 2nd class citizens ,because they are not citizens at all. Most of them were citizens of Jordan and some of Egypt (where they were truly 2nd class citizens) . When Israel occupied the West bank and Gaza -it did not incorporate it into Israel proper (except where it made settlements which, I agree, are a horrendous crime). It was quite clear to most Israelis and the Arab leaders that the occupation was done for strategic reasons. It was not done for the sake of expending a Zionist kingdom or something.


Can you explain why do you suggest that Gaza will be united with Israel that occupied it since 1968 and not united with Egypt that occupied it before 1967?
Why do you suggest the West Bank becoming a part of Israel and not a part of Jordan where it was before 1967?


Also your usages of words such as apartheid and genocide is simply wrong. Not only it's wrong ,but it's disrespectful for people who truly went thru genocide (like the Armenians in Turkey) or Apartheid (like black people in South Africa) to be compared with Palestine


Again, I am all for criticism of Israel, it's policies and actions leave a lot to be desired. But criticism should be based on a sound understanding of the situation. It is obvious from your posts that you have a very superficial understanding . Life is rarely clear cut ,good vs evil, us vs them . It's not a Hollywood movie. It's a complex situation . Please take some time to fully understand it.

 

Mai, I'm not going to argue these points with you any further as I would just be repeating myself.

The evidence of human rights abuses in Israel is overwhelming. Fact.

The US turns a blind eye to most of it. Fact.

It's time it changed. Fact.

You can either be a party to change, or you can be a collaborator with the zionists.

They're going to hang these people some day just like they did the nazis.

Don't be one of them.



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