Iraq Pullout

You can't back up your words. I figured that much. Put up or shut up.

I care about what serves the people's purpose, not the elities and the globalists who make up the two main parties.

If you were informed, you would probably understand that unlike Bush and Kerry, Libertarians don't believe on waging pre-emptive war on sovereign countries.

Apparently, your idea of the freedom not to care about the plight of people in foreign countries must be dropping bombs on them.

I am not going to argue with you anymore. You are too uninformed to waste time arguing with. I know you probably didn't get into politics until you jumped on the Kerry bandwagon within the past six months, but you have a lot of learning to do about how politics really works. Stop mindlessly believing all the bullshit you read on Moveon.org and Kerry's website for a change and educate yourself.

 

AMEN sister!

 

True, true, Willow. Don't forget the Libertarian party either, they are good too.

 

And he's 100% right.

Our original "reasoning" has been shown to be false, there are no WMD. As for Bush's* 50 other reasons to go in, well, yeah, they are equally hogwash.

No, Iraqis are intelligent humans, they can change their opinions when circumstances change. It doesn't take magic. It takes intelligence: Kerry- yep Bush*-nope. It requires help from and cooperation with other nations: Kerry-yep Bush*- hell no.
If Kerry's plan is Bush's* plan, Bush is lying and you should vote for Kerry.

How do I know? Well lets see, I was alive at the time. That's how. He was appointed by the supreme court and many people do not recognise him as president. He did not win the popular vote.

Kerry did not vote for the war, but I'm not going through that with you again, it goes in one ear and out the other, as if through a vacuum.

 

You are a lot like Green_Thumb. Instead of mindlessly believing everything the Democrats say, you mindlessly believe everything the Republicans say, going as far as to even quote campaign slogans written by Karl Rove.

People like you and Green_Thumb, who believe all the campaign rhetoric they hear without thinking for themselves, represent all that is wrong in this country. You not only make the country more divided, you make it more stupid.

You are both sheep, completely brainwashed and mentally enslaved by the phony right/left paradigm.

 

Again, I refer you to my post to you in America Attacks/Stand with us to victory. I have not heard back yet.

As for the 2000 election, here is a summary:
Supreme Court Decision

The 2000 election will go down in history, not only for the gridlock in Florida, but also for the way in which it split the Supreme Court, which had never before stepped in to rule on a federal election. The court divided 5–4 on partisan lines in its decision to reverse the Florida Supreme Court, which had ordered manual recounts in certain counties, saying the recount was not treating all ballots equally, and was thus a violation of the Constitution's equal protection and due process guarantees. The Supreme Court essentially ruled that the Supreme Court of Florida would need to set up new voting standards and carry them out in a recount, but also mandated that this process and the recount take place by midnight, Dec. 12, 2000, the official deadline for certifying electoral college votes. Since the Court made its ruling just hours before the deadline, it in effect ensured that it was too late for a recount. In the end, tens of thousands of undervotes—votes that were never tallied by voting machines for a number of reasons—remained uncounted, casting doubt on who actually won the election. As the Dec. 16th edition of The Economist put it, “by remanding the decision to the Florida court with instructions to do something it knew to be impossible, the court ended the election but laid itself open to charges of intellectual dishonesty.” In a scathing dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens said, “Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law.”

Fair and square? You be the judge.

 

Yes I guess Tony Blair is just one of Bushes puppets and I am sure the people in Iraq see it that way as well.

Love & understanding
EnonEmouse

 

sorry but we were all his puppets at one time..some of us just refuse to be his puppets anymore..as for the people in Iraq alot of them blog, and you can read what they have to say..most of them hate Bush.

 

I wasn't saying Tony Blair is the only puppet there are far too many to mention but I was agreeing with Green_thumb about us more or less being seen as one. I don't know how to look at blogs other then the links people post. How do you get to the home of Blog so to speak. I even have a blog and don't know how to get to home.

Love & Understanding
EnonEmouse

 

I knew you loved the Nazis........post #28
quote of pressed rat's- If it wasn't for the soldiers in WW II, you might not even be here today, or might be speaking German and living under Nazi rule. Say what you will but that's the truth.

So now here's your chance to flip flop- Do you think WW II was a mistake?

I think you forgot one thing in your post- what serves the American people.....
So you think we should help the people in Africa, you know, the AIDS epidemic? There are many other nations that need our help....nope lets close off the borders and keep our riches to ourselves...

Answer this- do you think the violence will end if we pull out? I bet I won't get an answer....

Yeah, I'm sure you have a lot better things to do........
And you stop believing all the garbage you read at votenader.org and badnarik(willneverwin).com and I'msuchanindependentthinker.whatever!

 

What the fuck are you asking him? Is Pressed Rat a nazi? I really don't think you know what the fuck you are talking about, green thumb. I think you need to go back to grammer school, and then after that, take a few pre-college intro courses, and then maybe try to take a Political Science course or so, and who knows, maybe even a course in philosophy?

Then maybe your mind will be your own's.

 

No, I don't think it was a mistake.

I think we would have become involved in the war sooner or later anyway. And yes, the Germans were a threat.

But still, I never said that war is "necessary", which you quoted me as saying. I certainly don't think war is necessary today, with our military capabilites, which could much more efficiently and effectively be used in defending this country's borders, versus invading other countries pre-emptively -- murdering innocent people -- naively thinking that will stop terrorism, when its real intention is imperialization. This is the neocon agenda, which the liberals have also embraced.

All I said is that if we didn't join in WW II, Germany would have still eventually posed a serious threat to us and the rest of the world, which we still would have had to respond to.

I still think our initial reasons for entering WW II were largely imperialistic, as it gave us a foothold in many countries across the globe.

I still believe our reasons for entering WW II were not what most of us believe today. Basically, Pearl Harbor was the 9/11 of the 1940's. Roosevelt knew it was coming, but did nothing, as it would serve as the pretext to enter the war -- the war in which we would gain immensely from and would establish us as the world's super-power.

How this makes me a Nazi-lover is beyond me. I am FIGHTING to see that this country DOESN'T become like Nazi Germany, which it is, thanks to gullible, misinformed, easily-swayed people like yourself, who are buying right into the grand scheme.

Let's close off the borders because our country's economy cannot survive the costs which arise when there is an influx of people who cannot afford to get by themselves. We have enough impoverished citizens in this country as it is that aren't being helped by the system, but rather hampered.

There are many WORKING-CLASS Americans in this country who cannot afford health insurance, while people entering this country illegally from Mexico get a free-ride -- essentially making Americans second-class citizens in their own country -- while at the same time slowly destroying the economy and eviscerating the middle/working class.

The sooner you realize the true agenda of having open borders -- which both Bush and Kerry promote -- the sooner you will understand the threat in open immigration.

Yes, I do think it would end. The violence we are seeing is in response to us being there.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter since neither of them is going to win. I do know that they offer a drastic change from the other two self-serving elitists, however.

 

Such truth, from the lips of Pressed Rat.

Or fingers typing, since this is a nonverbal form of communication.

 

Was I talking to you? No, so go away, you are like an annoying mosquito.

 

Hahaha. I guess I am annoying. But WHY am I annoying? Do I raise too many question marks in your petty personal beliefs?

 

So the war was necessary. Don't beat around the bush, that's basically what you're saying and most people agree so don't worry about it.

I never quoted you, but the implicaton is obvious. I wasn't talking about wars today. The point I was really trying to make is that god character should be aware that you don't hold the same exact views as he does since he seems to think all wars are unnecessary. Actually he probably morphs his values to whatever you happen to post that day....pathetic little thing that he is, urging others to think for themselves when he is clearly incapable of doing so himself.

Funny, many people suggest this about Iraq. Not me, mind you, but many people thought Saddam was a threat.

It was a joke, I know you're not supportive of the Nazi regime, who on earth is? (besides B*) You have made many outrageous accusations about me so I tend to return the favor now and then.

That's nice that you think you are doing something about that, good luck, you'll need it. I also think I'm doing something about it. And that's one area, among many, where we disagree, so I'll leave it at that. I'm sure our intentions are similar enough, we just have different routes of getting there. No problem. See, I don't think your one little protest vote will get us anywhere, or writings you may do or whatever. But I do think Kerry is a much better alternative to B*. There are more people on my side, so who's voice will make more of an impact, there is strength in numbers. I was with Kucinich until Kerry was determined our candidate, then I backed him. It's just logical, he is the other choice. I couldn't live with myself knowing I helped get B* back in. You are in a safe state, so it's good for you to vote for who you really want.

I respectfully disagree as do most informed people and those who have spoken to Iraqis.

I feel Kerry is a drastic change from B* and I know you don't. I would like to see Kerry offer the same things to Iraq that he offered to Vietnam.

 

No, raise as many questions as you wish. You're not really offering that by posting after pressed rat saying you love every word he says though.

 

Well, at least I have the capacity to admire him. You seem to not be able to see the greatness of his knowledge. HAHAHAHAHA, just joking, I must sound like some obsessive maniac or something. Pressed Rat embodies the 'cold intellectual', to put it one way, that Nietzsche would have embraced.

 

First of all, we need to clarify the difference between WWII and Iraq. In WWII, Hitler actually declared war on the US. I personally, however, am one of the few people who believes that even fighting THAT war was unnecessary, barbaric, and did nothing to secure peace on this planet - particularly in light of the 200,000 innocent human beings slaughtered *to see what would happen* with atomic weaponry. War is jackassery to me, period. I don't think the world is better off because the jews are now exterminating palestinians rather than being exterminated themselves (and to be clear here, I am NOT saying ANYONE should be exterminated - but that NO ONE SHOULD) or because the US is waging war after war after war instead of Hitler. I'm sure all the hundreds of thousands of Africans, Asians, South Americans, and indigenous peoples exterminated by the US and it's benevolent "allies" since WWII are very appreciative that they didn't have to "speak German" while they were begging for their lives... I further believe that capitalism has wrought EXACTLY the same terror and violence as fascism - as it is really the same philosophy at its core. I do NOT, however, want to turn this into a debate on WWII, and would appreciate anyone who wants to do so starting a new thread, because I think the real topic here is important.

Now, WITH ALL THAT SAID, Hitler actually declared war on the US, so comparing it to Iraq is idiotic. Not only did Iraq NOT declare war on the US, it had no capability to wage war against the US, it displayed no intention to do so, and it was complying with the UN requirements (whether you AGREE with the UN or not, the US continues to be a member). There was no excuse for invading Iraq, and the action has been called illegal by most human rights organizations and Kofi Annan at the UN.

greenthumb, I have read Kerry's "plan" for Iraq and listened to his "plan" during all three debates, which I heard in their entirety - not to mention the VP debate, which I also subjected myself to. At no time have I heard him state, nor have I read that he has a plan, to do what Kucinich called for. I have not heard Kerry say that he will apologize for the invasion. I have not heard him say that he will pull out US troops and replace them with UN troops paid for by the US. I have not heard him say that he will agree to blocking US corporations from profiting in Iraq. I have not heard him say that he will agree to cutting the US from all Iraqi oil contracts. If I am mistaken, please direct me to a link where I can read that information. As it is, and as a person who is extremely well-educated, who reads mainstream and alternative news daily, who listens to left and right-wing talk radio regularly, who watched ALL the debates, and who is extremely invested in the progressive movement, I have absolutely no idea what you refer to when you say that Kucinich's plan "sounds like Kerry's plan." All I've heard from Kerry is that he will increase active military units (though I haven't heard HOW he'll do this) and crush the resistance in Iraq (a moronic plan doomed to failure). As a person who supports the Iraqi people's right to rebel against illegal foreign occupation, I certainly cannot support any candidate who blatantly states that he will wage a war of greater oppression and dominance against these people.

As you point out, your opinion - that Kerry is a "drastic" change from the moron in the white house - simply differs from that of myself and Rat and God. I do NOT believe that Kerry plans to *actually* improve the situation in Iraq, because nothing he has said has convinced me of that, first of all - and the fact that he assisted not only in giving Bush the power to invade Iraq in the first place and was a party to the Patriot Act are all the evidence I need to know *exactly* where this elitist is coming from. The FACT that he also owns stock in Boeing and General Electric doesn't help him any with me either. His words, deeds, and the way he lives his life have proven that he doesn't represent me at all, so I'm not voting for him. And frankly, part of me believes that Bush probably should be re-elected, if only to keep the attention of the left on what is really going on.

 

I don't think it is fair to refer to Green Thumbs' beliefs as petty.