Intelligent people do not believe in god(s) or practise a religion

A note on the Buddhism: I heard today, actually, that the Buddha mentioned many of the Hindu gods in his book. As if he was saying that he thought these gods may exist, but were pretty much almost irrelevant to us, or that we need to focus on ourselves and not another being. I heard this from a Buddhist, but I also realize that Buddhism has MANY differant sects, as do all religions, and also that buddhism is a very personal religion, built around a lot of personal experiances and such, so every person would also have more takes on it than in the diversities within other religions. I thought I would point that out, but you may not take it that way.

Also, the guy said that he prefers to refer to Buddhism as non-theistic rather than atheistic. I thought that was an interesting way of phrasing it.

 

Didn't many of those religions you stated spawn out of theistic cultures though? Like Buddha was at one time a Hindu, and became unsatisfied with the Hindu faith. The other's were based on philosophers, so what were the cultures like BEFORE the philosophers?

 

Regarding:
#4 Wasn't the Arecheoptrics dismissed as a missing link though? Maybe not, but I thought I read that it was.

#7 Could you tell me the location of one of those places so I could research it? I am not saying I don't beleive you, but I would like to read about it. Regarding the Alps, I actually got that from either my 8th or 9th grade science book, which was actually put out by a Christian cirriculum publisher, but it may be found elsewere as well, but I am not sure. If you could cite at least one place where the collum in itg entirety has been found, you would discredit that book however. I am not saying it would make me an evolutionist, but it would however, make me discredit that book. I do disagree witht hat school on a lot of stuff though, they think things like rock music is from the devil (even the Christianized forms!) and they are obsessed with a very strict dress code and are just all around really weird. I am glad I just used their cirriculum and didn't have to attent there.

Interesting points you are raising.

 

I can't begin to reply on everything you said, however I did read it. You made a lot of REALLY great points that I would like to comment on though.

"You can't answer everything? I thought God was the answer for everything?

And is Libertine *trying* to answer everything?

If someone asked a question about my personal beliefs that I couldn't answer, would I still believe it? Yes. But, of course, I would set out to find the answer to that question, and if I found the answer to be in conflict with my beliefs, then I would disbelieve it."

While I do beleive God knows the answer to all things, I don't think that we do. There are a lot of things he never told us. I dind't mean that to sound offensive, or even deffensive towards Libertine, so I am sorry if it did. No, Libertine hasn't been trying to answer everything, and I wasn't either. I think everyone with a sensible head on their shoulders realises that no matter HOW we came to be, we DEFFINATELY know very little compared to how much there is to know. What would you disbeleive? The the answer or the beleif?

"Were you also born believing in the tooth fairy? How about Santa Claus. The Easter bunny?



Then you haven't talked to many atheists.

I have talked to atheists, and asked them this question, and gotten that reply.

Your thesis here is an appeal to the idea that "I haven't ever gotten this answer so it mustn't ever occur." And that is wrong."

I think we are born beleiving in SOMETHING supernatural and higher than us, we are just told what it is as a child. You are right, I haven't talked to a lot of Atheists. I thought I mentioned but may not have, that I haven't ever spoken to anyone in the same boat as say Libetine's kids who are born and not being taught about a god. So that wasn't what my "thesis" was, and I wasn't trying to state that as my conclusion.

"There is a compelling argument that religion stemmed from the human interaction with psychoactive plants.

Eat a psilocybin mushroom by accident, and then trip balls off and see "God" or feel the presence of something godlike. If you're still a very primitive thing, you might confuse it with a vision, and call it real.

And then you might tell your friends, and they might question it, and then they might say "hey maybe there is!" and start believing it."

That is an interesting arguement, but I would take it with a grain of salt, even if I were agnostic/atheist because there is of couse nothing supporting that idea, especially since a lot of religions teach against the use of any mind altering substances. Also, should we beleive that this happened several times and a bunch of cultures came to a (somewhat similiar) conclusion about one or many god(s)? Or should we beleive that the first human or humanlike figures did this and the concept simply got passed down?

"Actually, back when I was a panentheist, I believed that I had recieved communication from a goddess as well. Similarly, it wasn't audible. Truthfully, it wasn't even a communication that was recieved, I only felt like that goddess was TRYING to send me a warning, and that the warnings's contents weren't reaching me, but the feeling of being warned was.

Since then I have realized that it was just my mind playing tricks on me.

Either way, why does God speak to you then and not me? Hell, my father was a child abuser when I was a kid (until I finally contacted the school about it and they contacted the police). For YEARS, I BEGGED God to do something about it.

Did I even get a "Hi?" No.

Who cares if you have personally spoken to God? That's a subjective experience, and no matter what you say or insist on, it cannot be validated, and it does NOT count in favor of a God's existance.

Even so ... people have spoken to Zeus. And to Aphrodite. And to Mars (not the planet). And to the eight million kami. And even to fucking Raelians, our alien creators.

You are not the only one.

But there can be only one.

So who is right?"

First I would like to say that I am sorry to hear about your father.
I dind't really intend to make an arguement on why there is a God in that point, I meant to point out an answer to the origional question about why I, PERSONALLY, beleive in God. IO made that my last point for the reason that was like the cherry on top, or whatever, but realize it would not hold true for real evidence. Just as if you said "I don't beleive in God because he has never spoken to me" I could reply saying "Yes, but others claim he has spoken to them". You that varies person to person. Also true I am not the only one, but I am unsure about how to answer that. I have been pndering what if hindu's and Christians and pagans and islam and the native americans and all those differant religions (and more) have been worshipping the same God, but with differant attributes and differant perceptions on him. I do not beleive the Bible is infallible. For example, in two of the Gospels, they both tell of a story that said that Jesus was healing someone. Same town, same event, same place. However, one book said they were ENTERING the town, and one said they were LEAVING the town. Now, if the Bible were infallible as it claims then those two books should coincide. They can't leave and enter the town at the same time! So I think the Bible has errors, but that Christianity has good morals and many truths. I also think it is filled with Dogma, and those are the things I do not practice.

Okay, you mentioned a great deal of numbers, and raised an interesting point.. Something I will have to ponder for a while... But also consider that out of the 9 planets in our solar system, the only planet able to sustain life would be earth because it had the right hot/cold balances, it was the only planet with the right abount of oxygen and things like this. Or are these things we just evolved to need?

"Did a bird have to have it? Did we evolve from birds now all of a sudden?"

I may be incorrect, but didn't the chain of evolution go like: One celled organisms evolved into fish, then fish into amphibeans, then amphibeans into reptiles, reptiles into birds, birds into mammals?

"Yes. Observe. Viruses and bacteria that are exposed to damaging antibiotics."

Interesting as well. I suppose that they WOULD, theoretically, evolve faster than us because they live and reproduce faster, wouldn't they?

"Disclaimer: I mean to critique your arguments, NOT YOU. You rock."

Yeah, don't worry. It isn't being taken personal. Thanks, you are also pretty rocking.

 

I said I wasn't going to reply you everything you said, but I think I almost did anyway. You made too many good points not to comment on!

I have a question, that I have wandered for a while about Evolution. If we all came from one organism, then wouldn't we all have the same number of chromosomes? I think people have 33, right? or 34 or something. But other animals have less, and some have more. But only creatures witht he same number can spawn children together. So why did our number fluctuate so much?

 

Many would argue that non-theism is included in atheism.

(I actually argued that they were different -- but in the etymology of atheism there is no clean cut distinction as to whether or not it includes non-theism.)

Edit: Either way, he would be correct. Buddhism is non-theistic, not atheistic. But Buddhism definitely DOES proprose that there is no soul and that all things are impermanent.

I would have to ask you for evidence of this being true. I certainly do not ever remember believing in anything higher than me until my mom started making me go to church when I was a kid.

As it stands, we know that we know nothing with any significance or consequence when we are born, so why would we be born believing in something supernatural?

And if we are born believing in something supernatural, is it really a belief if we don't even know what it is?

Well, I do take it with a grain of salt, and I think that it's a good link but it isn't strong enough to have put religion where it is today.

Still -- I would be inclined to think that this happened many times to many cultures, and they all saw different things leading them to different systems of belief.

But would I be here talking to you right now if things hadn't happened exactly as they did? Live life with no resentment. -- Nietzsche

There is evidence now that bacterial lifeforms may have existed on Mars at some point.

Even so, it's true that only our planet is necessarily inhabitable. Still, my probability only needs one planet to be life sustaining for humans in order to work. The chances of at LEAST one of those planets to have an environment that is habitable is extremely high.

I understand that both birds and mammals originated from reptiles, not that mammals originated from birds.

All you need to start evolution is a single protocell. They grow and reproduce within minutes. After maybe a day or so, you have a whole bunch of them -- with all kinds of defects and mutations which start the evolutionary process.

Chromosomes, DNA, RNA, and other systems such as this, increased and decreased with evolution. In fact, most of our DNA is literally garbage that doesn't translate into genes and proteins -- but among the chaos there is still order of some magnitude.

Also, sometimes chromosomes get spliced by accident and stuff happens. After so many years of evolution, I'm surprised we only have 34 or so.

 

Could this be one of those things Science calls garbage now, but later finds out we really do need it? For example, when they thought the tailbone, cocyx, whatever, was of no use to us and just left over from when our ancestors had tails, and they removed it form some people they founf they could no longer walk. There are also other examples with organs like Tonsils and the Appendix and the spleen and other things like that that we CAN live without but we really do use, a whole lot! I find those stories interesting, but feel really sorry for the people who couldn't walk anymore.

 

Well, the problem is that the "garbage" just doesn't make any genes at all. It's not just that it isn't used in human beings, it just isn't complete.

 

Hmmm... okay.

 

By saying just exaclty what a bunch of other people say ALL THE TIME BLINDLY lol you are doing exactly the same thing, you are almost religious in your non-religious stand.

 

Sure.

The entire geologic column is found in North Dakota and in 25 other basins around the world, piled up in proper order. These basins are:

* The Ghadames Basin in Libya
* The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
* The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
* The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
* The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
* The Adana Basin in Turkey
* The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
* The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
* The Carpathian Basin in Poland
* The Baltic Basin in the USSR
* The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
* The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
* The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
* The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
* The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
* The Jiuxi Basin China
* The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
* The Tarim Basin China
* The Szechwan Basin China
* The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
* The Williston Basin in North Dakota
* The Tampico Embayment Mexico
* The Bogata Basin Colombia
* The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
* The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta


(Sources:Robertson Group, 1989;A.F. Trendall et al , editors, Geol. Surv. West. Australia Memoir 3, 1990, pp 382, 396;N.E. Haimla et al, The Geology of North America, Vol. L, DNAG volumes, 1990, p. 517)

 

Okay, thanks Libertine. Like I said, it doesn't make me an evolutionist but it does make me discredit thos science books.

 

That is not exactly true. There are intelligent believers (Albert Einstein, Mohandas K. Ghandi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) and not-so-intelligent believers (G.W. Bush???, Zacarias Mussaoui???) just as there are intelligent Atheists (Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan) and . . . not-so-intelligent Atheists (?).


There is no conclusively proven correlation between belief and intelligence just as there is no correlation between age and intelligence, ethnicity and intelligence, affluence and intelligence, or between any other pairs of categories. The only logical conclusion one may draw about someone who does not believe in god(s) or practice a religion is that he or she is an Atheist.

You are free to believe (or disbelieve) whatever you find meaningful, but real intelligence pays humble, absolute attention to reality (regardless of what you may think "reality" means) and never insists that anything is to be confined to the limits of one's own understanding.

Otherwise, by your own logic, you may as well be the blind man who finds no reason to believe in the existence of the moon.



"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin



Peace and Love

 

Furthermore, it makes sense that in a high mountain, the geologic column would be upside down or close to it. Think about it ...

A mountain grows because sediment from the air lands on its surface.
Sediment gets into the air because the wind erodes it from other surfaces like in valleys.

 

Yes, of course you can. But you didn't SEE the meaning beyond the metaphor.

Yes, of course they are real.

But, only those things you can see are real? So all things you can't see, like . . . the space between the things you CAN see, or . . . time, or probability, or possibility, or meaning, or creativity, or perspective, or peace, or compassion or love, truth, wisdom, harmony, etc. . . the list is probably endless, does the fact you cannot see any of these "things" mean they do not exist? If you believe they do exist then you probably have to consider redefining your understanding of what "real" means?

How do you know? Why should I believe you? Why do you believe your variety of "mental" is realistic? Why do you believe anything?

Whatever it is you think you are talking about when you speak of God, you can either deny it exists or you can claim authority (or rather, you can claim to know something, or have something to say, about its existence), but you can't do both. How can you possibly know what you are talking about?

Peace and Love