Indeterminism VS Omnipotence

what are you all talking about?
what does "god" mean ?
I have no experience that enables me to place the object
or concept into a contextual understanding?
can someone understand me if I say
go and fetch the oligilooyougetanga that is near the grimmulompyomogandasaka?

 

Can someone understand occam when he asks..
Why do objective laws exist that allow as to ask rational questions?

To say all is random and unguided.
Completely ignors the question of how the one who says such.
Got so damn complex.
So complex in fact that you or occam can philosophically use our
own cognitive ability to question our own cognitive ability
to question.

We must first resolve the premis
Otherwise.. all arguement is a waste of time

As it is unlikely we will do so anytime soon..
Thus columbo is quite correct that we should concentrate on humanity
and leave the 'big picture' for latter when we have more smarts.

Yet it is very interesting to hear others opinions.
Even if 98% are crap.
The fact that much of humanity embraces hate as a catharsis.
Acurately defines our stupidity.

Occam

 

its already known that the concept of god and religion was invented by humans therefore its flawed. its just a matter of time before the insular population of the world realizes the silly dependence on some astral deity isnt nessecary for modern life.

 

Then this means that the government IS the devil - else why would they stop perfectly innocent christians from murdering us by putting them in prison - which means the devil is good and god is bad !
But as there is no god or devil its pointless thinking that way !

 

"You can say that you can resist these temptations to do wrong. Then one must ask again what causes you to want to resist these temptations?"

Reason.

It is irrational to harm others.

Who can give one true practical reason for harming another human being
that does not result in greater longterm harmfull effect to all involved.

[and this does not mean physical self defence..duh]

Occam

 

me and jp had like a 3 page argument about somethning along these lines...

 

Heeh

Yes agree there is no such thing as decribed by religion.
But.
Are there other decriptions of such 'say god'.
[the 'devil' is just a minion.. forget that farce.]
totally removed from any religious premis?
Say a 'god of reason'

Such is entirely possible and evidence exists to support such.

A god that
did not create us.
lays down no laws that we must follow
made no heaven
and no hell
Requires or wants NO WORSHIP
Intervenes not at all in human affairs
In fact might not have noticed we even exist.

LOL..what a blow to the human ego...sounds exactly right.

Occam

 

first of all this hole thread was disputing the concept of onmipotence and the religious sects that deal with it (not intentional but unavoidable).....NOT mixing and matching atributes of the sects they belong to.....

why not?.....two "ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL" (if they were in fact, truly identical) starting positions after 13 billion years would produce absolutely identical life forms in the exact same positions in the same two worlds in the same two identical univurses....why couldnt two absolutely identical starting positions create an absolutely identical cause and affect system that caused "mary beth kranz" to drop her keys....

why would these two absolutely identical starting points result in different outcomes

 

heeh2

If subject 'A' chooses a different path in universe 2
200 years earlier. Mary would not be doing the same thing
at 2:23:28 pm 27th nov 2005.

Choice, unless you believe there is none.
Then
You reply is not your own, for you have no choice of replies.
It is said by you, but as everything is deterministic then you are nothing
but a tape recorder or a toaster oven,, doing your thing.
Your philosophy reduces you and your consciousness to that of a rock
on some hill in siberia.

Humanity has recently found indeterminism in objective reality.
[aside from human choice]
Quantum indeterminancy

Thus no two identical starting positions will have the same result.

Sorry

Occam

 

i just dont understand why 2 identical starting points cant dictate all aspects of both realities via, cognition, opinion, weather, terrain ect....

determinism isnt by any means "MY philosophy" as i created the thread attacking it........

 

What is human consciousness?
We dont know.
If we dont know what it is.Then we cannot say it follows any
rigid laws like causality. It seems an effect of deterministic mater.
But beyond that, will it always do the same thing given two
identical initial situations?
Occam thinks not. Just as evolution will not result in the same species over a billion years.
Dynamic systems are to complex for determinsm to totally dominate.
One fine day a man turned left instead of right
And ALL changed

Humanity has recently found indeterminism in objective reality.
Quantum indeterminancy
Thus no two identical starting positions will have the same result.

Sorry

Occam

 

Heeh2

Also occam bekieves there is no 'first cause' be it god or anything else.

Reality has always existed.
Reality is not a product of cause and effect. Causality occurs 'in it'
but not 'to it'.
It seems strange to occam that so many fall into this trap of preconception
that our universe and the FAR GREATER thing called reality has a 'cause'.
Why should it?
You so easily acept a 'first cause' called god. A thing without cause.
Yet cant accept that reality itself may have no cause.

A reality without a beginning, of infinite duration into the past, that
has ALWAYS EXISTED. Is in fact a reasonable proposition.
It certainly does away with all the trash thinking humans come up with
to convince themselves that everything exists for a reason. That
reason usually being that humans are the center of everything and that
'god' made everything [and on the 6th day he made us.. the icing on the cake]

Occam thinks it far more realistic [excuse the pun]
That our universe is but a small island in a huge sea.
And that sea is bordered by massive continents of activity.

Yes. MOST activity is deterministic. [ie newtonian exct]
But only most.

As you can see. Occam is violently opposed [but leave out the violence] to the idea of a purely deterministic reality
The idea of such runs counter to his reason ad intuition.
The core objection is simply this.
A reality that can have only one path
Is pointless
Even religion must agree it is pointless. What of all the 'free will' stuff.
Choosing good or evil becomes a joke. Determinism is the antithesis of
even organised religion. If a human chooses good over evil because of the
structure and law of his and his surroundings atomic make up.Then so did jesus.
Jesus had no choice but to die for our sins. because atoms A^1 through
A ^66 were in position X on the day of his immaculate conception..
THAT... is determinism
And the list goes on.
Beethovens 5th will always be THE same if atoms A^1 to A ^66 are in
position X at the moment of his conception..

exct exct [^ = power of]

The very idea of such determinism. Such rigidity in our reality.
Is abhorrent.
If occam believed that his whole life was set in concrete from the
moment this planet formed a crust[and way before that]
That he 'could NEVER' have but one path in life.. he would kill himself on the spot. if he was simple enough to believe absolute determinism.
For such determinism is THE absolute of absolutes.
And occam believes the ONLY absolute is that reality IS.

Reality IS mostly a deterministic machine,but, with some dice rolling and even intent,included.
Einstein was both right and wrong.

all the best

Occam

 

wich is why i felt it nesessary to create such a thread as this one.....

the side affects of the implications of most modern religions imply undesireable concepts like determinism are fact (most likely unwanted but unavoidable)....and then they ask me to have faith in them?!?!?!?

faith in a reality were everything is decided for me before I decide it?!?!?!?

my entire life, etched in stone from begining to end without flaw centuries prior to my birth.....


I hope not

 

and im still a little cloudy as to your approach to this but....

it sounds about right....

 

heeh2

Thats because occam has no 'formal education' in philosophy, theosophy or
logic.
He argues as a self taught generalist from a self imposed system of understanding
drawing on extensive reading and empirical experience.

Thus his terminology is not in 'synch' with formal philosophy.
Thus if you say phenomenology, occam will say husserl.
But cant comment on all the variants of such, for the variants
and their creators are logical offshoots of the original thinking.
Something occam can do by himself.

You suggest religion posits determinism as fact because as god is omnipotent thus nothing will deviate from his plan...=determinism.
But who said 'a' god is as religion posits?

Occam can come up with a more reasonable description of 'a' god in 30 minutes
than all the garbage humanity has detailed in 7 thousand years.
And you can as well.

Occam

 

how much formal education reguarding philosphy do you think a 16 year old baptist raised agnostic has.....though formal philosophy has had its impact, i wouldnt call my philosophical education formal reguardless if you were calling it that or not

(most) religion says that.....and so the people who follow it (the fundamentalist at least)

as the devil is only the "bad guy" because (most) religion says it.....god is reasonable, just, loving and kind....

i hope i didnt misunderstand your question

 

Heeh2

Occam wishes he had your smarts at 16.

No, not calling your philosophical POV 'formal'. Just that that is where
most of the flak has come from over the years. Uni educated philosophy majors
weilding their quotes and refferences. Agree your position nothing like that.

As to "But who said 'a' god is as religion posits?"
Well religion says a god is what it proposes.
Occam says that while religion MAY be justified in saying a god could exist.
It is WOEFULLY deficient in any 'conceptual description' of such.

Always the descriptions are laced with absolutes.
Omnipotent
Infinite
He really hates sending so many of us to hell, cause he loves us.
But only if we worship him..
He needs worship.
Adulation.
The poor guy seems to be insecure. So billions burn in hell for not
licking the ground he walks on.

As George Carlin quiped.. This sort of behaviour is not the workings of a
supreme being. It's what you would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.

Occam

 

whats that called?....

 

Heeh2

Absolutes can only be applied to the nature of reality itself.

'Reality has always existed'. refers to the duration of reality.
Obviously, quite a significant aspect of said totallity of everything..

Energy=mass,space and time.
Has always existed.
In one form or another, depending on current applicable law.

Do you suggest it simply popped into being.?
Or an omnipotent god resting on an infinite stack of turtles.
Created it from HIS will?

Soz, The principle of parsimony says that the most likely answer is that it has always existed.

Sorry if this upsets human preconditions.
Occam cares little for such

Occam

 

ok

erm......so what is it called?

what is the name of that theory is what im asking....

i would have thought my views were clear by now

lol