IMPORTANT - Don't go into London today if you don't have to

My father-in-law is a policeman and he reckons at least 200 dead. One of the tube bombs brought the tunnel down around it and it's just rubble. With about 70 people per carriage and, how many? 5? bombs on the underground (they found more unexploded apparently) that makes for quite a few. I guess they want to keep reprisals down by underestimating the death toll, which is fair enough.

 

Firstly... my immediate concern was for the welfare of my brother... we've been in contact and he is understandably shaken but in good health...


Secondly... my next concern is for the victims of this cruel event... for those who have sadly lost their lives... for the loved ones who will need to survive the trauma of the deaths of relatives... sons, daughter, fathers, mothers... all loved... and for those who have been injured in the blasts...

Thridly... I am concerned for how we (as a nation) will respond to this day... if this forum serves as a microcosm of "intelligent" views, then I fear for how our society will develop as a reaction to the events of today... and I am seriously saddened by certain members who are seeking to take advantage of today's outrage to peddle their particular rants and grind their axes at the most inappropraite of times...

Rubin... thanks for your clearly inappropriate comment designed to make the thinest of links between today's deaths in London and events in Israel... but I think you cenveniantly forget that London has a long history of being a terrorist target... I clearly remember watching the news throughout the seventies and eighties when the IRA held a sustained terrorist bombing campaign in London... if you feel this is an issue worth pursuing, please feel free to start up a relevant thread where these issues can be discussed further... however, please don't try to impose your particular brand of bullshit at a time when people are trying to cope with grief and concern caused by the events in London...

IronGoth... by the same token, should we have nuked Dublin or Belfast during the bombing campaigns conducted by Irish paramilitary groups?... because that conflict was as much a religious war of terror as it was a political war of terror... I am seriously disturbed by the implication of your argument which is essentially that all muslims will become murderers and terrorists via an extension of their religious beliefs because the extension of this argument will be to completely ban Islam as a faith... however, as with Rubin, this is neither the time nor the thread to pursue this line of discussion... you have the right to start your own thread to discuss this issue... but this is not the time to fuck about with people's emotions...

Let us remind ourselves that people have been murdered today as the result of a deliberate terrorist action... whoever is eventually identified as being responsible...

Fly...

 

It's so awful

Luckily everyone on here seems to be OK

 

RE: IronGoth... by the same token, should we have nuked Dublin or Belfast during the bombing campaigns conducted by Irish paramilitary groups?...

Yes

RE: because that conflict was as much a religious war of terror as it was a political war of terror...

I would have been totally fine with it. They levelled Coronation St. in my UK home town, and they nearly killed a relative of mine in a separate attack.

RE: I am seriously disturbed by the implication of your argument which is essentially that all muslims will become murderers and terrorists via an extension of their religious beliefs

No, just that Islam demands murder and terror. Sorry, it's all there in the Koran.

 

my step sister works just opposite where the bus blew up. the thing she is most traumatised by was seeing piles of bodies she said. so only 2 dead? that makes no sense atall.

i know who i'd believe.

i am not even convinced al quida was behind this. it just seems like a very convenient excuse to disrupt G8. just like 9/11 was a very convenient excuse to start on the middle east.

of course people are gonna own up to it if they want the credit. it dont mean to say that they were the ones who actually done it.

i am very skeptical about all of this, but most of all i am just sad for those directly affected. my heart goes out to everyone who lost someone.

it is all very worrying.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

 

Thank you for your condolences magikalcreation, I'm sorry to hear about the looks you're getting, unfortunately not all people have the capacity to see past their anger, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people on here that do though, the islamic way sounds beautiful in reality, its just a shame that its name is used so wrongly, alsalam alaikum sister.

 

RE: islam is based on peace, equality, acceptance and respect of all gods creations..

Koran 2:216: “Fighting is ordered for you even though you dislike it and it may be that you dislike a thing that is good for you and like a thing that is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.” Muhammad claimed that Allah had commanded him to “fight against all people until all confess there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.”

Bukhari 4:52:283 Ali said that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (unbeliever).

As for equality, in addition to condoning slavery, in Muhammad's time, women's roles were notably inferior to men's. One of the most difficult verses reads: "Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them" (Sura 4:34). The Arabic word "beat" or "scourge" does not mean tap lightly; it is the same word used to beat a violent criminal or a camel. Muhammad himself once deliberately struck ‘Aisha "on the chest which caused me pain", according to Sahih Muslim vol.2:2127

In matters of inheritance, women are to receive half of what men receive (Sura 4:11). Men are the "managers" of women (Sura 4:35) and can "come unto [their] tillage as they wish" (sexually) (Sura 2:223); can divorce their wives by stating "I divorce you" three times (2:229-230); and may take more than one wife (4:29).

 

Some more peace-loving verses:

Qur'an 9:5, known as "the verse of the sword," declares, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

"Take not the Jews and Christians as friends....Slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them.... Fight against such...as believe not in Allah..." (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41, etc..).

"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura Al Ma idah 5:33).

"Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who also get martyred (In Allah's Cause)."... Hadith, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 80i, Narrated Abu Huraira

 

Irongoth ... Stop disrespecting this forum with your shit please. People are dead ... go take your agenda elsewhere.

I think most people from the UK community here will echo my sentiment by saying that your views are not welcome right now.

 

I'm not suggesting Muslims are evil people. I'm just pointing out what the Koran says to believe and do.

 

Paul: I just got confirmation that all my relatives are alive.

I trust and hope everyone else's friends and family are OK, and offer sincerest condolences to everyone affected by this tragedy.

However, this thread got into certain issues, and I want to make sure some things are absolutely and crystal clear. I've read on this board that it's the Mossad that did this, I'm sure the "it's George Bush and Blair who did this to gain government control" folks will chime in soon. Lest we forget people, there are people out there who consider themselves at war with us.

When London was hit by Nazi bombs we simultaneously grieved the dead but also girded for battle. And a battle has in fact been brought to the UK as it has been to the US, Spain and elsewhere.

 

so utterly revolting the things that people seem to be capable of...
makes me just wanna hug my kids...and anyone else I can get my hands on...
stay safe kiddies and many condolences to anyone that needs em..
ya are in the thoughts of the world

 

Agreed. I wish there was some way to stop the violence.

 

i dont know the qur'an well enough to quote from it, but i believe there's a passage that goes something along the lives of all children are sacred and you shouldnt kill them. along with the equivalant of "thou shalt not kill".

it all depends on which part you chose to follow and which part you dont. there are some extreme muslims who follow the parts about killing people and some who folow the parts about peace.

in the same way that some extreme christians follow the bible where it sez homosexuality (for example) is a sin and some who follow the part about thou shalt not judge.

everyone choses the different parts of their religion to suit themselves, and you cannot say every muslim is a murderer anymore than you can say every christian is a raving homophobe.

peace and love
stardust
xxx

*edit* i just read back and a whole load more posts had been written since i started this reply. i am not trying to continue the debate after it had been stopped, i just didnt realise it had stopped. sorry guys.

 

RE: i dont know the qur'an well enough to quote from it, but i believe there's a passage that goes something along the lives of all children are sacred and you shouldnt kill them. along with the equivalant of "thou shalt not kill".

Find it. All I've seen in it is smite these, lie to those, kill them... take not infidels as your friends etc.

RE: it all depends on which part you chose to follow and which part you dont. there are some extreme muslims who follow the parts about killing people and some who folow the parts about peace.

Er, if you read the Koran it says to be peaceful - to MUSLIMS. But to the rest, lie, cheat, kill as you can. I'm sorry but it does say this.

I've known many Muslims who were kind, articulate and wonderful people. I cannot understand how they can persist.

RE: in the same way that some extreme christians follow the bible where it sez homosexuality (for example) is a sin and some who follow the part about thou shalt not judge.

Yes, but understand Muslims belive the Koran is written by God and there's no parts to understand and parts to ignore.

 

well, like i said, i didnt realise that you guys had tried to end the debate while i was writing my last post, so all i have to say on the matter is the same as what you said...

peace and love
stardust
xxx

 

Thank you supermommy, such a lovely thing to say, hugs all round.

 

i really don't think this is the problem and that this would solve anything. do you have any idea of the beliefs and ideals of islamic extemists? you cannot reason with this kind of belief system. i doubt that the extreme actions of those responsible for 9/11 and yesterday's events would have been prevented by making them 'feel more at home.' i don't think there is anything that we can do short of finding every single person subscibing to this way of thinking. they are very determined and this will not go away.

 

p.s. i'm sorry if this debate has ended, but just wanted to say what i felt.

also, i'm not saying it was isalmic extremists definately, just that if it was they are not going to be stopped by such simple measures.

anyway, glad everyone is okay. i'm a bit scared now about going on the bus through central london but i have to or else i'm not living as i want to and doing the things i want to do. i am very very sad at what has happened, it is so close to home and i think has made us all feel very vulnerable just going on a bus or the tube. it made me feel that very easily could have been someone very close to me, i don't take my life for granted anymore. it can be taken away in a split second. there is no discrimination here. only that you are on the wrong bus or the wrong train at the time. i cried when i saw the news and i am still crying because i now fear the city i love.

 

what makes people think that muslims wish to be integrated ?