I'm confused ((psychedelics))

:lol: You know something from the rig veda!?! well, heaven forbid that you should resort to quoting vedic sources...

one of many rig veda mantras that Srila Prabhupada quoted daily is Rg Veda [1.2.22.20]: tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayo diviva caksur atatam... this mantra is chanted whenever one performs yajna to declare visnu's supreme position. Im sure you already knew that.

Lets hear what you know about upanashadic literature?

I wish i could talk to you about this in person, internet is very gross and impersonal, i would love to discuss something intelligently rather than have to read your petty arguments. we could even discuss your society's aryan invasion "theories"

Sorry to hear youve been sorely offended and are holding a grudge. Sometimes that happens. Thats the beauty of detachment. when someone is detached than they hold no burden.
(as stated in the vedas) the burden of enimity towards others burns like fire and eventually consumes all of the good qualities of that person. this is evident in your writing.

oh look one of 3478 references for Lord Krishna in the Rig Veda
RV_04.017.14.2 a krsna im juhurano jigharti tvaco budhne rajaso asya yonau
RV_04.017.15.1 asiknyam yajamano na hota
>>> Ref. VedaBase => RV HYMN X

So, Visnu, e'en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => RV HYMN CLVI

Nice Rg veda quotes eh?

5 Yea, Pusan, Visnu, ye who run your course, enrich our hymns with kine;
Bless us with all prosperity.
6 The winds waft sweets, the rivers pour sweets for the man who keeps the Law
So may the plants be sweet for us.
7 Sweet be the night and sweet the dawns, sweet the terrestrial atmosphere;
Sweet be our Father Heaven to us.
8 May the tall tree be full of sweets for us, and full of sweets the Sun:
May our milch-kine be sweet for us.
9 Be Mitra gracious unto us, and Varuna and Aryaman:
Indra, Brhaspati be kind, and Visnu of the mighty stride.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => RV HYMN XC

Rigyajuh samatharbakhyah veda chatwara uddhritah
Itihasa puranancha panchamo Veda uchyate
The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge the Vedas were separately made. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the Puranas are called the fifth Veda.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => vedanta sagar 1.4.20

 

this is very insightful, thank you.

 

Again i feel bad that youve been offended, i wish i could apologize on behalf of whoever offended you.

what you wrote above is evidence of how degraded we have all become. As soon as we cant support our position logically and with reference with authorities, we change the subject. it just shows that youve been defeated.

I would love to discuss such matters with you under a seperate thread

 

the point of bhakti is devotion... devotion to tree or flower or krishna or kali, it does not matter... its about the love

prabpad tried to say it was only about krishna not knowing when krishna spoke, he was speaking about the universal and so worship and have bhakti to anyone or anything, it does not matter

 

bill, whoever put that site up is a bit of a homophobe which goes against krishna consciousness philosophy as krishna and arjuna had a homosexual relationship

 

Defeated? I think not. Nothing you've said has changed my own position on psychedelics, and I doubt you've had much influence on anyone else either.

 

Well I wouldn't want to offend gays.
As for the people who put that site up, at least they're providing this info which to say the least, is extremely inconvenient for those trying to sell iskcon as whiter than white.

 

Actually, I don't hold any grudge. No reason to. I simply don't like cults such as KC.

I doubt we'd get on very well if we were to meet, and that isn't likely anyhow. If you don't like the internet, why waste your time here?

I don't actually have a 'society' - and frankly, it makes no difference to me whether the aryans invaded India or not. The balance of evidence would tend to suggest that they did.
However, since as an HK devotee you believe mythology to be historic fact, I don't intend to discuss this. For me, neither your guru nor your books hold any particular authority, so as you can see, you'd only waste your time anyway in such discussion.
If as a result of this thread one person has been saved from becoming ensnared in your whacky little cult, I'm quite content.

 

Yes, thats understandable. because of attachment, really no one is able to even have a dialogue with another person. just no intelligence. even if information is presented to you, because it would cause you to change your lifestyle, you reject it.... its ok though dont worry.

 

that argument is like saying "if you don't have cake, eat the mud and pretend its cake, it does not matter" .

 

I don't intend to worry.

The point is, I already know the information contained in Krishna Consciousness, and I don't want to waste your time or my own in a pointless attempt to convert either you or me to the others point of view.

Despite what you seem to think, I'm not personally offended or even insulted by being told I have no intelligence. I am not trying to prove that I am intelligent. Very likely, I am pretty dumb - as indeed are the entire human race, otherwise we'd hardly live on this paradisical planet and have turned it into the hell that it is, due mainly to human stupidity.
So, I am the dumb child of a dumb spieces. But even degrees of dumbness are relative you know.

I began by offering unbiased advice and some info on psychedelics and spirituality to someone asking for that, making it clear that I myself no longer use them.
It then began to look to me as though this person was considering entering iskcon, something which I feel would probably be a tragedy.
I know a group of ex-devotees, and IMO they've all had their lives pretty much ruined by all that happened back in the 1980's under Tithapada, a man appointed by the so called infallible Prabhupada. I have no reason to think that iskcon today is much better.

Vipramukya Swami before he resigned as a guru.

It took the catholic church about 1,000 years to become corrupt and criminal. It took iskcon only months after SP's departure.

 

you are very evolved to have that realization...

 

I am not an iskconite , and I hate their dogmatic views, but I must also say that there are many Iskconites who lead happy and contented lives.

I think what iskcon should do , is to get rid of their dogmatism and embrace science, reason and logic. After all Buddha, whom they claim is the last avatar of Vishnu, emphasised logical thinking and reason.

Well the Vaishnavas have been living in India for many centuries, and they are not at all corrupt or criminal, but instead have great cultural finesse and morality. Mahatma Gandhi described himself to be a Vaishnava.

I think the problem is that srila prabhupada directed his non-indian devotees to radically change their lifestyle and adopt Vedic culture.And I don't think there is any need for that , to be Krishna conscious.

Also Vedic culture , with its emphasis on character and self-denial,is far removed from Western culture which is basically hedonistic.

To be krishna conscious, all one needs to do is to love Krishna, and follow his teachings in the Gita.

Also Srila Prabhupada was present only for a few years, and this was not enough to train and mould Iskconites in Vedic culture, and make them independent to stand up on their own. If he had been alive for a few more years, all these problems which crept into iskcon would have been resolved easily.
As it stands now, most Iskconites, have to learn and stand up on their own by trial and error.

 

Well it is Iskcon itself that broke out the news of this scandal. And even though this cost them a lot, it still speaks of their candor and sincerity .

 

del.

 

Not all western culture is hedonistic by any means. Take for instance the christian churches - for long ages the basic teaching has included the idea of self-denial for a higher end.
One could point to Indian tantric art, or to contemporary Bollywood movies and say Indian culture is hedonistic - cultures are big affairs, and I think it's hard to generalize.
Certainly, historically in the west over the last 2 - 3 hundred years, the emphasis has been very much on material progress and so on.


The situation with Vaishnavism in India is obviously totally different from what we have in the west. My own studies in this area tend to give me the impression however, that the somewhat narrow doctrines held by Iskcon are not necessarily held by many Indian Viashnavas.

Sri Krishnaprem is generally credited as the first westerner to be initiated into Vaishnavism, and went on to become a well know spiritual figure in India.
His book 'The Yoga of the Bhagavad Gita' gives an account of many of the doctrines which is totally at odds with that of Prabhupada.
Also, the writings of Dilip Kumar Roy and others, all Krishna devotess, convey something which seems a long way from the content of most Iskcon literatrure.

There are also stories of a big feud during the 20's or 30's back in Inidia in the Gaudiya Math - tales of murder, subsumed under the heading 'kill guru become guru'. My understanding is that it took place after the death of Bhaktisidanta Saraswati, SP's own guru.
I don't have detailed info on this, I've only ever come across snippets.

The problem as I see it on one level is this: Iskcon people tend to regard SP as a kind of infallible being, and whatever he said 'is law' so to speak.
Yet the very fact that he left it until he was an old man to come to the west and thus had no time to train up proper sucessors is indicative of some underlying flaw in the whole 'mission'.
Interesting to note that according to the bible, Jesus was only with the disciples for 3 years. Yet many Iskconites regard SP as superior to Jesus, or at least bringing a higher teaching. So sfter more than 10 years with Prabhupada personally present, you might expect more, given the claims made for the power of Krishna Consciousness in that particular form.

Also, the idea that western people have to adopt Indian culture wholesale is I think, and as you say, a mistake.

Anyway, today Iskcon looks like a bit of a fragmented mess. They have innumerable gurus - over 70 I understand, and they regularly fall down or resign. There is controversy over SP's final instructions, with the iskcon reform people saying the sucessors were only meant to be 'ritviks' or representatives of Sp, not gurus in their own right. And there is heated animosity between these two parties, at least here in the UK.

 

not true, they tried for years to keep it under the carpet

 

Hare Krishna!



From Niranjan........

I think the problem is that srila prabhupada directed his non-indian devotees to radically change their lifestyle and adopt Vedic culture.And I don't think there is any need for that , to be Krishna conscious.

Also Vedic culture , with its emphasis on character and self-denial,is far removed from Western culture which is basically hedonistic.

To be krishna conscious, all one needs to do is to love Krishna, and follow his teachings in the Gita.



Very truly said.
Gem is inside your own house but you look for it elsewhere. Jesus-conscious is like being Krishna-conscious. If we are talking about the Christians, no Christian needs to turn to Krishna neglecting Jesus. If you cannot accept Jesus as God accept Him as Guru and love Him. God is Guru and vice versa. Christ is Krishna and Krishna is Christ. As Niranjan has said, all one needs to do is to love and follow the teachings. In fact that love itself becomes the best teacher.

We always seem to be more engaged in counting the leaves than eating mangoes.

 

lol... that is true. Its just very hard sometimes in a western world especially to take something on complete faith...because, I don't know how many of you agree, I feel our upbringing and our culture demand explainations for everything. And I feel sometimes... to have a faith such as Mirabai or one of the great saints and to be completely devoted is something so unheard of in religion here. I've been studying religion as well as archaeology and I find it interesting to talk about religion in its heart aspect as opposed to a theory one is absolutely unheard of... even in groups that aren't academic based.

 

Well, I have to say that Iskcon , as a rule , is ,more spartan than the western churches in the sense that they were strictly vegetarian, and also prohibited the consumption of tea and coffee.


And I must also say that I do not approve of this.(except for vegetarianism).

Krishna and the Buddha themselves advocated moderation rather than asceticism.

And Krishna, as I mentioned in my post ' Krishna: Zorba the Buddha' was a great yogi, and at the same time enjoyed life deeply.
And I believe Krishna's life is his greatest message.

Also Krishna advocated Jnana Yoga ( the yoga of the intellect) and raja yoga( the yoga of conquering the internal nature) in the Bhagavad Gita, and these are two aspects of yoga, that Iskcon ridicules and denies.

I think it is time, Iskcon changes its stance with respect to these two yogas systems and assimilate them in their system. This would bring much needed logic and reason to their institution and resolve all their conflicts and confusions.


.

Srila Prabhupada was well versed in the Vaishnava traditions, and was known for his organisational skills and practicality as well. However he was not a scholar or a bhakta yogi of the calibre of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. And he definetely had limitations. I don't consider him to be infallible . However he did something great in spreading the teachings of Krishna and the Bhagavad gita all over the world , and helped to bring a new dimension of spirituality through out the world and for this he should be appreciated.

And as I said before in a previous post, there are many Iskconites, who lead a happy and contented life.

And an example of this is George Harrison, who was a lover of Krishna .

Every organisation have problems and Iskcon is not an exception to it, though it definetely has its vices as I have mentioned before.

However I must say that the Iskconites, or the Vaishnavas for that matter, like the Bahais, never engaged in forceful conversions of others to their faiths, unlike the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists , and never engaged in violence as well.