Wish I had that kind of faith - I really do - but until then I will have to go on the best I can. Limping along on science and reason, poor tools but mine own. Nevertheless, good luck and good wishes to all people, followers of God or otherwise
any Christian should be armed and ready. Doesnt mean we always are , though! It's not neccessarily about wit. It's important to think with your heart too. A good healthy balance of heart and wit. "Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints...." Ephesians 6:10-18
the thong of truth wont cover a big area. You might want to try the long underwear of truth...with the little opening for the butt, with the feet in it, and maybe a cute little hoodie. then, get some mittens of love and cover your face, and run around in circles laughing, no one will be able to get you then!
i dunno, do you feel shot down? yikes. sorry. lol i was looking out for your whole body...an arrow in the leg is quite painful i would imagine.
that's why i said the thong of truth wont cover a big area...compared too your whole body, it's not a big area, is it? :H but if you've got truth, it can protect you from alot of hurt!
So, tell me, Bree, What is your definition of "God"? I appreciate the sentiment, but it's not necessarily been "bad Christians" as much as it is bad dogma, bad science, and bad philosophy. And not necessarily, "bad", but irrational, unreasonable and illogical.
Let's not create a red herring, sweetheart. I accept Christians and anyone else as "real people". It's the dogma I debate.
He is the spiritual entity that I have chosen to follow. He is what my faith is centered around. I see him as the perfect creator of my life and my universe as well as the perfect ruler. I see him as a fatherly figure and I am His child, in the spiritual sense. He is everywhere, all-knowing, and wise. He is of great power, being the creator of the universe, in my opinion. I see him as having the ability to do anything he wants, yet he doesn't because he wields his power wisely. And out of all the other spiritual entity's I have had the chance to learn about or experience, God is the one I feel drawn to, the one that I feel is for me. I don't feel a connection to the others, but I do with God, and I sense that He's real. So therefore I am drawn to Him over all the others. He is the one I talk to, the one I cry to, the one I ask for help. He is the one who responds to me, to my prayers and to my needs. He is the one from which I learn many things beneficial to my life. I've considered that there's no such thing as spirituality or spiritual beings, but I always feel that is not true. I sense there's something out there, something spiritual, something more to this world than we see with our physical eyes. And out of all the things that it could be, to me, it's God. That is my definition of God. Not everyone agrees with it, and no one has to, but that is what it is for me.
What do you mean by "spiritual" entity? All-Present, All-Knowing, All-Good, All-Powerful ? What faculties do you use to "sense he's real"? You "sense" there's something more than this world? There is. There is much more in the universe than this world. That is a fact. So, if all that (the universe) is "God", are you pantheist?
Not physical. Pertaining to my soul, and my inner heart. (And not the kind that pumps blood.) Yup! I guess the logistics my brain comes up with, the feelings I get, the energy I feel, lots of things all added up together that lead me that way more than others. That's a hard question to answer, but I do sense it. No, I'm not a pantheist. I wasn't saying the universe IS God. I was saying it was CREATED by God, according to what I've chosen to believe. And I didn't mean something more than this world in the universe, I meant there's something more than what meets the eye.
Your soul? As in the same soul mentioned in the Bible? By "inner heart" you mean your emotions? All-Knowing as in past, present and future? All-Powerful as in can do anything or can do anything within logical bounds? All-Present as in everywhere at all times? All-Good as in the epitome of morality? So, would you say you "sense" it with your mental processes and not by any of the natural five senses? I' d like to know your definition of "the universe" and why you've chosen to believe this?
"The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity." Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes. Yes. My definition of the universe is all the things in it seen and unseen. Why have I chosen to believe in what, specifically?
This sounds more like a modern day Webster version. But, I want to know if you mean the BIBLICAL version of "soul" as in the original meaning of the original languages? Because I want to further understand what you mean by these qualities of "God", I would like pose some questions to you. Before we tackle all four, let me just ask a few questions about two of them: "God's all-goodness" and "God's all-powerfulness" Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? OR Is he able, but not willing? OR Is he both able and willing? OR Is he neither able nor willing? OR So how did your mental processes come to this conclusion, if you don't mind my asking? What type of experience did you have in which you did not use any of your five natural senses? So would you accept the definition as being, "the whole of existing things?"
That WAS the modern day webster version. I thought it said it best. I thought a soul was a soul, how is a biblical version of "soul" as in the original meaning of the original languages different? I need to know that before I answer if that is what I mean or not. I'm going to say that God is both able and willing to prevent bad things happening to people, but I think "evil" is not always the cause of these things that we consider to be bad. If you wanna talk scapegoats, evil would be one. Sometimes, shit just happens. Anyway, God doesn't always fix things or prevent things even though he can, because sometimes letting things happen fits into a greater good or a bigger plan. I know that theory will drive you crazy, but you asked what I thought, and that's what I think. God is able to see more than we can, so while we are sitting here cursing our own misfortunes and unable to look past our selfishness, there is something bigger going on more important that our selfish desires. Something that if we could stop being selfish for a few moments and see the bigger picture, we would realize that the misfortune counted for something bigger, that it was in fact sacrifice. Sure, it doesn't make it any less painful or hard to deal with, but we ARE selfish beings so it's gonna be like that. For example: Something happened to me a couple of years ago that was the product of my selfish desires AND being preyed upon by an ill-meaning person. I lost a lot. At the time it would have been really easy to be angry with God, because God should have prevented that ill-meaning person from preying on me and causing so much tough stuff in my life, but I didn't. I tried to keep from doing that and kept in mind that while it's not what I wanted, I was sure God had a bigger plan that my momentary happiness was sacrificed for. In retrospect, I now see his greater plan, and I'm not sorry it happened it anymore. And for all I know, there could still be even more or bigger things to come from it. If I knew then what I knew now about the role that this event played in my life, it still would have hurt like hell because I'm a selfish being and I want everything to be perfect, but it just can't be that way. It's not how life is. It doesn't make it any less painful. It just makes more sense when I see the purpose it served. I really wish I knew how to explain this. It just does. I just take into account everything I learn and according to everything that I know in my brain, it makes sense to me. It's just a big process of putting everthing together and coming to conclusion. The brain is a wonderful thing. Experiences... hmmmmm. I've had a lot of experiences that don't involve the 5 senses. Haven't you ever just known something, or had a hunch? Everyone has these experiences. What about when these hunches turn out to be correct? You've had an "experience" in which none of your 5 senses were used. Say someone is telling you something, and you don't know why, but you get the feeling they are lying and you are pretty sure they are. You can't place your finger on why, but your brain is working in the background, taking everything it knows, and putting things together to let you know that something's up. You end up just knowing they are lying without being able to explain how you know. That is how it is with me... I just know, I just sense that God is the one for me because everything that my brain puts together, taking into account everything that is involved. I hope that makes sense. Yes, I guess I would accept that, as long as things seen AND unseen were considered existing things. My brain hurts now. LOL
The definition of that word, as with many, has been manipulated and added to for centuries. So, you could make words say anything you want based on the cultures they came from. The original word for soul was "nephesh" and the "psuche", both having essentially the same meaning. The word "psuche" is where we get our word "psyche"...originating in the brain--the mind, the mental processes. So, if God (all-powerful and all-good) IS both able and willing, why isn't it prevented? And if he's everywhere, all the time, why isn't it prevented everywhere all the time? But, if God is all-powerful, all-good, everywhere, all the time, why would he have to use pain and suffering? Can't he accomplish his will without it? Surely an all-powerful, all-good Entity could come up with a less ugly plan? The story is nice, but it is merely subjective. Many people have been through horrible times and turned out much better without "gods", so how do you explain this? In order for this to be used as proof, there would have to be objective evidence. Indeed the brain is fascinating, I study it. Major in philosophy, minor in psychology. But, tell me exactly, what type of experience you had. Wait, you just said "someone is telling you something". Did you hear it? (Hearing) Your brain reasons things out based up prior experiences. Everything your brain houses (hunches included) come from a prior experience from one of your five senses: reading something, hearing something, feeling something, etc. What does your brain put together to form a concept of "God" that cannot be better explained in another way? And what does your brain put together that even gives you this concept? Perhaps because you were told of "God" through a minister, family member, book? And this aided in the creation of this "concept"?
If the biblical definition of "soul" is the mind and mental processes, then no, that is not what I meant. I meant what makes us, us... I am not sure how to put it in scientific cold hard terms like you're wanting though. Because like I said before, it's part of a greater plan. If everything was ok all the time, then of course it'd be easy to follow God. We'd be mindless robots all happy and hunky-dory without a real clue. What's the point in that? If I were a god, I would want people to follow me because they thought about it and thought for themselves and decided that they respected me and trusted me... despite that things weren't perfect. It's kinda like how you know who your real friends are, the ones that stick by you when you aren't your best. You have a point. But I wasn't really trying to prove anything. I was just sharing my personal views and illustrating my point. Empirical evidence is needed to prove anything, but I never said that my personal views on things were empirical evidence. So that it can be ripped apart and I have to defend something that I know I'm not gonna change my mind about? On the basis that these experiences are rather personal, private and meaningful to me, I'll pass. Sorry, dude. No, I didn't hear anything, I'm deaf. LOL But you have a point here too, I'm not disputing that. In fact that is what I was trying to say, you can't always explain why you have a hunch, but you have it. It's because your brain puts everythign together to give you that hunch, and you know it's there, but you can't pick out the very reasons why. Not everyone is well studied on the subject of psychology. I'm taking psychology in university right now and it's all I can do to keep up, I don't expect myself to be able to find the exact routes in my brain that lead me to think and feel the way I do about anything , especially hunches with no immediately apparent cause. That's how I came to the conclusions about my beliefs. The more I learn, the more my brain makes it's conclusion more solid. It's just the way I think, I guess. Like I just said, I don't know specifically, but yes, part of it was definitely everything I have ever been told or read, good and bad, about my chosen faith path. But that's not to say that the only things I have ever been told or read about are Christianity. I've had a decent amount of education in Judaism, Budhhism, Wicca, Paganism, and good chunks or bits and pieces of others as well. I happen to prefer Christianity, although not the kind of Christianity that seems so prevalent in our society. I'm a lot different from most of the Christians I meet where I live. I'd like to think, a lot more tolerable. And I have not closed my mind to continuing to investigate and learn about other faith systems, either. It's just that despite everything I've learned, I still choose Christianity. That is my personal preference. However, my own walk with God has been greatly enriched in ways from things I have learned from other faiths. With everything that it has learned, and everything that it is learning, my brain happens to choose God, just like your brain happens to not choose God, if that is so.
So, if you don't get your belief in the soul from the Bible, where did it come from? But, wait...if God can do ANYTHING, couldn't he make a way where we wouldn't be mindless robots? And since he knows EVERYTHING past, present and future, we MUST do what God KNOWS we will do, right? Wouldn't that make us a little bit like "robots" or "puppets" anyhow? So, what exactly "convinced" you? Which events transpired that convinced you that Christianity is the objective truth? I mean subjective experiences cannot be used for objective evidence, so what convinced you that Christianity is THE truth?
Hey there, you guys... What a facinating discussion! I'd like to jump in, if I may: Hey there, Lib. I see you've been busy. I'll reference St. Anslem's Ontological argument here, specifically, the Greatest Conceivable Being. It is a "reductio ad absurdum" argument, which means it's only a hypothesis... But I definitely agree with Anslem on the point that if we believe G-d to be the GCB, it means we cannot come up with a better conception... The only way it could be better is *if* this GCB exists. Let's create a hypothetical situation: Let's assume that we are the first sentient beings ever, aware of our own existence. How do we know we exist? I won't dissolve into the many diverse arguments. We feel that observations weren't experienced before our new awareness to be proof of our existence. Even if these observations are hallucenations and dreams, we must exist in some kind of form in order to experience these. We would probably ask ourselves about the most intriguing philosophical questions that even today have no concrete answer: "Who am I?", "How did I get here?", "What is my purpose?"... Reason and reflection on the self, our vehicle for experiencing these observations. It's what separates us from our animal neighbors who function on instinct alone. Within the observation that we are somewhat different than our animal friends (at least, according to Western traditions), we'd probably begin to wonder why we are so different... So complex, in a certain aspect. In comes the conception of the GCB. But we really can't claim that the idea hasn't any creedence at all... If it was merely evolution or chance, why is it that we aren't quite like the rest of the tenants of the Earth? Why do we ponder, reflect, acquire, desire, feel emotion, and build civilizations? But what of our hypothetical first sentient human beings? Who told them about the concept of the GCB? I'm not claiming that faith is concrete evidence by any means, but we should consider that they might have a reason for forming such an idea, aside from fear. Faith is formed by our feelings, which can be faulty, I admit. But feelings and emotions aren't "non-existent", even if their value is not a thing that can be measured or proven. I love my fiancee, even if I can't prove that to you guys. *shrugs* It's a feeling in my... Well, who can say "where", but the point is, when you love or hate or feel comforted (like those who get saved do within their experience), it's a personal emotional experience. We can't make that real to anyone else, no matter how much we try. But that doesn't necessarily mean that our love (hate, fear, whatever) isn't genuine, and doesn't have a catalyst for making us feel that way. I've always believed in souls, even though I haven't always been Christian. I searched my whole life through for comfort and solace through knowledge, and found none. I tried religions apart from Christianity to no avail. But the moment I set foot in a Church and had a mind open enough to consider that I might be wrong about Christianity being a false, evil conception, the comfort I was looking for was mercifully poured over me in abundance. I can't make that real to you, Lib. I really wish I could. But I can tell you that only when I considered the other point of view without hatred, mockery or disgust that I found peace. My peace is real to me, and has changed my life forever. I guess you might understand a bit better if you'd have known me before... *shrugs* At any rate, Christians are not the only religion to believe in souls or GCBs... Which makes me wonder why it seems that every culture has some sort of similar idea on the subject if it has no substance.
The Ontological is one of the fanciest forms of sophistry ever invented. Suppose I conceive the perfect island? If one can conceive the perfect Being, one could conceive the perfect material or substance as well, but this doesn't transform into objective reality. Subjective thoughts or feelings is not good criteria for objective reality. This is subjective. "Love" is subjective. Feelings are subjective. Subjective experiences are quite interesting but are not criteria for objective truths. Feelings come from your mind, your psyche and not from the "heart" (blood pumper) or the liver or the pancreas. Your psyche is conditioned from birth and your genetics determine certain aspects of how well you will respond to this conditioning. Your "sensing" or "thinking" of something doesn't make it so objectively. No matter what it is: a being, a place, a concept, etc. And before ministers, books, etc...there was experiences which led many to believe in VOLCANO GODS, THUNDER IS THE VOICE GOD, etc. All because they were afraid of something. And they may not have called it "God", but the idea is there.
I never said it proved G-d's existence, Libertine... This was the part of your post what I was responding to. I was saying that I can't think of a better explaination of G-d than the GCI of Anselm's ontology... That's what I think of when I think of G-d. I really can't describe it another way. Maybe my vocabulary is limited. I wouldn't have brought attention to the word "if" if I was trying to prove some kind of objective reality. Objective reality is something you're talking about with someone else, I think... Belief systems and ethics can't be proven in such a way. There's very little knowledge about even our-"selves" that we can know for certain. What does your brain think of in another way that should replace my concept of G-d? Suppose god (we won't specify), in your darkest time of need, sent a feeling of comfort/warmth/"clean" highness to you and fortified you somehow with the courage to continue on....? If this god came and ministered to your loved ones as they passed from this world in peace in his/her/its hands...? Has your god not served its purpose and been constructive in your life....? Would it seem so foolish then...? *screams bloody murder* Bloody murder! Bloody murder! Naw, just kidding.... But seriously, *I'm* not discussing objective truths. I thought you understood that I won't press these issues as absolute truth... Rather, I'm trying to open you up to the possibility that, perhaps, just maybe, one doesn't have to be a completely blind idiot to be a Christian. That's a lot of what you're posts have sounded like lately... Please forgive me if I'm mistaken. There have been some hurt feelings lately. Not mine of course. I don't have feelings... I'm just a bitter ol' harpy. LOL! I guess I'd ask you not to hate me or the ones like me more than you would hate anyone else who falls in love and finds peace in that relationship... Because human beings really are more than just a logical reasoning machine... We need to be loved and feel secure not only for our emotional welfare, but for our physical as well. Why would babies die from lack of touch if it were not so? It seems that it would be too much for us to bear to be born into a cold world without nurturing... We would never survive. Without hope, we are emotionally destitute. Please don't. I wasn't conditioned for this. I was a proponent of anything and everything that was un-Christian before I was saved four years back. Hell no. Dude, I'm not insane. What am I, the Silver Surfer? But I don't believe that my primitive brothers and sisters were delving deep enough into the situation... They feared the immediate situation at hand and tried to appease it, for fear of their safety. These primitive belief systems indulged their every desire and believed it to be the way of the gods, when more often than not, most find spiritual growth in living a balanced life... Knowing when to sacrifice of themselves, and knowing when to take time off for themselves. But in any event, no one can ever prove such a thing objectively... We don't even know if we have a soul beyond a shadow of a doubt. I started a thread earlier this week... It reviews some key elements, i.e. definitions seperating absolute truths from faiths and beliefs. I know you know them, Lib, but I just wanted to post it again for anybody who might not have seen it. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117304 I'm not gonna sit here and waste my time trying to prove the absolute truth of a belief system. My G-d, if I could do that, I could be the next pope. Which means I could be infallible.... Which is really freakin' scary.
