Hurt/offended by the Church/Christians?

My last thought is this; How to consider me: treat me as a father to my 7 sons, treat me as a professional with many years of public service, treat me as someone who has explored remote jungles, treat me as someone comfortable in my rural ways...there are a lot of ways to consider each human being you encounter...I am remarkably disinterested in who someone sleeps with since that is none of my business. I expect the same treatment from other people.

 

I totally agree. People are born GLBT: It's not something we choose. And I think religion (not God) is what judges us harshly. And God (I believe) is not merely Christian. I believe God is much more universal. We are loved (and loving). No matter what the bible tells us. That book has caused more harm than help.

And that's why I rely on people: Actions speak much louder than words. I admire Mother Teresa. I have little respect for any Pope. The sad truth is that what Jesus (for example) taught the world - is rarely practiced. Preaching has become the norm. The winners are much worse than the so-called sinners. It's all become very sad.

QP

 

I think the problem that most gay people will always have with the majority of christians, is no matter how well intentioned they might be, like timmr, most (although not all) still regard homosexuality as a sin. I think timmr is coming more from a 'love the sinner' angle towards gay people, rather than saying being gay isnt a sin. Which just illustrates the problem. I think gay people will have trouble with any christian who professes that homosexuality is a sin, even if they are not acting in a hateful, bigoted way towards gay people.

The main reason that gay people feel offended and sometimes intimidated by the church/christians, is because they are seen as being 'abominations', and committing sin just by being attracted to the same sex. I could be wrong, but I think most gay people would feel that a christian coming from a "love the sinner hate the sin" approach to homosexuality is just as bad, as the ones who are very venemous with their anti-gay speech.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

 

Amen.

P.S. You wrote this while I was commenting on a previous post (I have dial-up). I think your summary is heart felt and brilliant. :sunny:

QP

 

And your 2 pennies are worth a lot. :sunny:

QP

 

Yarapario - That is perfect - May I read your final thoughts to my congregation? AND 7 SONS? Holy moly! I have a 11 week old daughter... ONE... daughter. How do you do it?

Invisible Soul/ Queer Poet - very insightful. It is something that has come up a few times. And it is well known what the bible says about homosexuality (although the judgment/fire and brimstone messages are different) and I do believe that the bible is true (and Queer Poet, the bible has done quite a bit for me learning about love - more good than harm for me at least - if it wasn't for Jesus' teachings, I would be a much more closed minded person).

"Love the sinner, hate the sin," is a cliche that trivializes the heart of the whole matter. Our command from Christ is to love your neighbor as yourself. It has nothing to do with hate, nothing to do with sin. It is merely to love. My motto then is not "Love the sinner, hate the sin," it is "Love the sinner." The bible also tells us that "all have sinned." So my life is focused on loving all sinners (not defining gay people as sinners because of their sexuality, but defining all people as people who have made mistakes, lied a bit, cheated a bit. Everyone has fallen short of perfection). I love my best friend (who is a sinner) in the same way that I love my gay friends (who are also sinners) and admit that I need love (because I have sinned too). That is why forgiveness is so key in my faith because people will fail you - best friends, parents, spouses- but if you love people that make mistakes you see the heart of the person, not merely their actions.

With all that being said, the stigma that a Christian in a friendship with a gay person when overanalyzed could seem like it is hypocritical (to be friends with someone whose sexuality, a key part of their identity, you disagree with). But I have friends gay and straight who believe the bible is false. My whole life is based on what I've learned from the scripture. I hope my relationship with my wife, the way I raise my daughter, etc. will ring true to what God has taught me through the bible.

As I have gay friends who do things I may not agree with, my life is based on something that my gay friends think is completely wrong. It does not affect the way we drink coffee together, share work stories, and encourage each other to continue what we love to do (one friend is a write, I'm a musician - we share a creative, expressive focus). The same goes for my mormon, jewish, buddhist and atheist friends.

So please don't think that the "love the sinner, hate the sin" encompasses the Christian mode of being cordial and tolerant in the world. We want to love people (period).

Does that make sense? (sorry, may be a bit diluted- trying to cook lunch while finishing my thoughts)

 

Aww, why thank you kind sir!

@timmr: Although I dont agree for one moment that being gay is a sin, (and indeed, even some christians do not believe homosexuality is a sin) I think being able to be friends with people who do things that you personally dont like is a great thing, and the world would be a far better place if everyone did that. For me, I could be friends with anyone, provided that the way acted did no harm to others. So basically, unless you're someone who enjoys inflicting pain on others (human or animal), then I could be friends with you.

 

Not really. Since we have been called "queer" forever and a day - I like the idea of liberating the word: Turning a negative into a positive. I'm glad you like Lennon. We need more beautiful (and insightful) people like him. And I greatly appreciate your honesty. :sunny:

QP

 

Timmr, Yeah use what ever from the post...I'm good with it. I got 7 sons by adopting 3 different groups of brothers starting just after my discharge from the Army in the late 60's. It has been part of my spiritual life to father these kids at the edge of society...to integrate them into healthy lives with a valid place in the world. Throughout time gay men and women have found these niches in society where they fit in as part of a grand plan for a healthy community for all...At least thats how I see it. Opinions may vary.

 

Queerpoet- fantastic. Thanks for replying. I know that many people disagree that homosexuality is a sin just as many people believe it is foolish to commit your life to serving a God that doesn't exist. I know that my views on things (the bible, homosexuality, faith, eternity, etc) are not universally accepted. As much as I would like them to be, I know it won't be. While many believers use that as a crutch to remove themselves from society, or to sit on a high horse and scream judgment, I use that knowledge as an opportunity to learn about things outside of what I know.

This forum has been fantastic in helping me to gain perspective. I honestly expected 0 responses. I consider myself blessed to have (electronically) met you all.

Queerpoet, on a personal note, are you actually a poet? As a musician who loves to write and compose music/songs, I have a huge respect for wordsmiths. The music, melody, arrangement and dynamic come easy to me but when I write lyrics, I get children book like rhymes. haha.

Yarapario- so it was 2 sets of 2 and one set of 3? What age did you adopt them? Kudos to you for keeping the siblings together. My wife and I hope to adopt someday. A friend at church (asian father, and caucasian mother) have 5 biological hapa kids and 2 of the cutest adopted African American girls. They are an amazing family and my wife and I have a lot to learn from them. I still don't know how you and my friends do it with 7. Everyone says it gets easier as the baby gets older, but I'm so drained from this 11 week old! haha. Even though everyone says she is laid back and easy... =oP Any tips on survival here?

I'll be out and about the rest of the day, but will try to check in the forum before our message panel tomorrow to see if there are any last things to add to the discussion with the church. Other than that, I'll check and reply to anything tomorrow and Monday. Thanks everyone.

 

God, being omnipotent, knew that Jeptath's daughter would be the one to be sacrificed.

God TOLD Moses to distribute the captive virgins among his soldiers, after he TOLD Moses to command his army to commit slaughter.

what about 2 Kings 2:23-24:
what about Abraham nearly killing Issac. they'd both be traumatized for life.
What about all the genocide and destruction of all those cities by Joshua and the world wide flood.
and my favourite
psalm 137:8-9



It's funny watching you try and dance around the Issue.

What a lovely, caring and just God that you worship. How benevolent he is, how wise he is.
He creates us so we can suffer, and then tortures us and tells us to kill each other.
and will then send us to hell and/or destroy us if we don't believe in him, and then makes the world completely void of any evidence to suggest his existance. He doesn't manifest himself, he doesn't register on anyone's senses, maybe about from schizophrenics.
And all we have to go by is a book, and there a several books that claim the same divinity.

And it completely depends on your location.
if your were middle eastern, the Qur’an is your book.
If you live in the punjab, the Guru Granth Sahib is your book.



a joke:
A Catholic priest on a mission to convert as many as he can to Christianity meets an Eskimo and explains Jesus christ to him:

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

 

Enk- as previously established, this is not the place for this debate. If you have anything to add about any hurt that Christians or the church have done to you, I'd be very interested. But you have obviously made up your mind and me responding would serve no purpose. Every post that I've posted has been focused on our desire to follow God's command to love. Focus on hate/killing to justify your disbelief, this forum is not to discuss this. I did not dance around any question, but go back and read my posts as there were many points that you avoided/didn't address/dance around yourself.

Thank you for your time. If you have another avenue to continue a scholarly discussion, I'd be interested and have many responses to the last few posts in mind, but lets be honest, you don't seem too interested in anything I have to say, you just want to express your hate of my faith without listening to any points that I make. Funny thing is it is quite similar to exactly what I'm trying the church to stop doing towards LGBTs.

With that being said, thanks for taking the time to post. This will be my last response to you unless you have something to say related to this thread.

 

vice versa.

I read your post. All I saw was 'god didn't do that the people did that'.
But the bible actually states that God TOLD people to commit those atrocities.

 

I have a feeling that this was meant for me, and not Queerpoet, so I'll reply. lol

I do disagree that homosexuality is a sin. As for believing its foolish to commit yourself to serving a god for which there is no evidence for, that isnt really something for me to comment on. People can believe in whatever they want, and should be allowed to do so. But once people use their religion and their beliefs to attack people, and for a negative purpose, that is when I start having a problem with it. I do find many christians to be extremely hypocritical.

Perhaps being born with a terrible affliction, and having to live a very harsh existance due to that has made me a very understanding and tolerant person. (if also completely hopeless and despairing at times) Although Id like to think and do think, that had I been born "normal" , I would still hold the same values and morals. I know what it's like to be maligned and often misunderstood by general members of society, so I feel an affinity with other groups of people who often suffer similar attitudes. (Like homosexuals)

Personally, I will always have issues with religious people seeing being gay as "a sin". But as long as they are not climbing on a high horse, screaming judgement, and fire and brimstone at them, then they are entitled to believe what they want.

 

its tough love

 

I simply cannot efficate my sentiments strongly enough on this topic.

My life, and my mental health has been nigh on ruined by religion.

A religion that teaches us to hate our bodies and sexuality, in all it's forms.

A religion Whose prophet who offers metaphorical self-mutilation as the righteous cure for
a life that otherwise may have lived in the full extent of the ONLY wonders that we have.

A religion that teaches to fear the universe and it's unknown mysteries.
And to substitute endless hours of painstaking work to discover consciously observed answers,
for the cryptic and poetic writings of an old book.

This sexist, utterly atrociously violent, archaic mythological book.

A book on how to beat your slaves. A book about the circumstances under which you can kill
your children. A book about killing.
A book about a bloodthirsty, self-admittedly jealous, childish, unjust, vengeful
immoral God, which you hold up
and tell the world it is holy. It is good. It is love.

Just....

I don't know. It hurts me. you know that?
I don't even know im gay anyway.
It doesn't even matter.
I'm just a person who is living on earth
and you are making it hell for me.

 

@enk: I can definitely understand such anger and venom directed against religion, specifically Abrahamic ones. But I think the real actual problem, is humanity has a dark heart, it always has done. Anyone who is different from the "norm" is to be feared, ridiculed, and attacked. The problem with religion, specifically islam and christianity, is that people can use their religion as a shield to hide behind, in order to legitimately demonise people like homosexuals. I agree it is abhorrant, and a cancer in our society, but launching personal attacks on someone like timmr isnt the answer.

 

o_o Well. I really do not want to get into this debate... i can tell its getting pretty... intense... so i'm going to just write about my experiences... XDD
I am a female and i am bisexual. I do not want to limit myself and others of love just because they are of the same gender, I think its unfair^^... but anywho, i have always been ridiculed.
I remember this girl messaging me and telling me that i was going to hell and the whole "It was adam and eve not adam and steve" shit that i've hears way too many times already... -_- but I find it really hypocritical. Isn't the idea of Christianity to love your neighbor and treat everyone equally? Why would YOU as a human being go around judging people and saying whether or not their going to hell? Isn't that God's job? So wouldn't it be bad for them to think themselves so high up there to be able to say where they are going in the afterlife? Would that be considered a sin? o.o I don't know much about Religion, i tend to not give a shit and believe what i want to believe. I never really got the whole God thing (Sorry if the way i stated that was offensive, by the way, because it kind of makes it sound like I'm degrading Christianity but that's not what i'm trying to do. I just sound weird throwing out religious terms and whatnot, knowing that i don't know a crap about any of it XD) so i do not believe in it. I lean more onto Taoism actually.
But the fact that the whole message of Christianity anymore is not to love everyone equally and help others and do your best to be a good person at heart, it is now to follow all of these damn rules and people just end up mean, violent, hypocritical. I'm not saying all but a good majority. Most wars in history have to do with Religion, and that is a sad thing i believe, because Religion should be peaceful and not cause wars.
Like in Catholic religion, i remember in my World History class my teacher was talking about how giving money to the church was a way to be forgiven of your sins, so as long as you paid the church money then you could sin and still go to heaven. Or how if you put a monk next to a poor, crippled homeless man and they each asked for change, the majority would give money to the church. (Oh crap, i almost forgot to add that we were talking about a long time ago, not present times. o_o) I'm not sure if this relates, but it reminds me of how Religion can really steer people in the wrong direction and make them hypocritical and actually the opposite of Christians and Catholics and such.
So yes, the church has offended me numerous times but it makes me sadder to think that they have such a screwed up way of trying to stay true to their God, when they should focus on themselves and how they should become a better person.
Sorry if all of this sounds like a jumbled up piece of crap, i'm really really tired right now.

 

Well said and spoken from the heart. I know - the feelings are my own, have been for decades - since I was your age.

Yes, it is the majority culture that believes such silliness and then wants to coerce all others into it. It is a proselytizing religion whose "mission" is to go unto the world spreading itself, like some bacteria in a large petri dish.

Just try to bear it, push against it when you can and don't let it get you down.

 

Although Yarapiro may shut down this thread because things have become so heated, I think that would be a shame. The OP wanted to know if gay people had been hurt/offended by the church/christians, and these responses are giving a perfect answer to that enquiry.

I do not want to get into a deep conversation on my views of religion/christianity, however, I will say that some are definitely blinded by their beliefs so much, that their view of reality becomes distorted. One time I was having an arguement with a religious person, and when I mentioned intersex conditions to counter his point that "god only makes perfect man, and perfect woman, no inbetween", he said there was no such thing. Religion definitely can make some people deluded about irrefutable facts of the world.