How To Stop The Alt-Right

Such an american attitude..no offense, i was raised hearing how I could do anything I wanted if I only tried too.

Still relatively true in America and any industrialized nation, although as we can see from the cost of education it is getting increasingly more difficult. And surely you understand a child born in poverty and with parents who either dont care or are too tired from living in poverty to really try, are much less likely to succeed. it doesnt mean they cant succeed, just that it will be so much harder than people who are given certain advantages in life and surrounded by people who not only encourage but expect themnto succeed.

But the fact is the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, and not everyone lives in this fairy land of the american dream, or the european dream, or any kind of first world dream. Much of the world lives in deep poverty that the type of poverty we refer to when we speak of disadvantaged children in America cant even really compare, and a lot of people are exploited in horrible ways we cant imagine as american workers.

And the more we give power away to corporations who have no problem causing abject human misery in the name of profit, and the longer we allow unethical billionaires to control not only their business but our government as well, the closer we are to discovering what it really means to live in a world with no real advantages and no hope..like much of the world already lives.

Edit : last sentence sounds a bit dramatic so i wanted to clarify..i know there are a lot of people in the third world who have tight knit communities and are relatively happy. I am referring more to workers exploitation in i dustries like - diamonds, chocolate, clothing, seafood, rubber, etc. And the children who are forced to work in these industries

 

Meliai, although i aprreciate your sentiment here....do you really think anyone is really going to care?
Ask yourself, if you were sitting in a mansion, smoking your big fat cigars....and wondering which airplaine or yacht you were going to buy next....would you be thinking about the person who probably cannot even afford to get enough to eat?
Ask yourself seriously, and answer yourself honestly....

A caring person is rare in this world. How many do you really know?....

For starters, maybe the very poor should stop having so many children until they can afford to take care of them properly, too. .

 

So all those success stories I've read about and witnessed from people who've turned out better than the product of their upbringing was all a figment of my imagination? Like Ben Carson who came from a really poor family with a single mother grew up to become a high profile brain surgeon and presidential candidate. No, that never happens... Once you're rich, you're rich forever? Yeah right.

I won't deny that certain circumstances make it more difficult for some people to fulfill their dreams, or become successful. But it's a very pessimistic outlook to perpetuate the idea that we are born with barriers and artificial limitations that keep us from getting what we want in life. Perhaps we should spread the idea that materialism and status symbols are not key to leading a meaningful and fulfilling life.

Personally I'm not jealous of those who have more money and material belongings than I do. I don't need a mansion, a yacht, or anything like that to get me happy. I'd be content to live in a 800ft^2 cottage out in the forest by a creek on a few acres of land and have an income to afford travel. And that would be sweet success in my book.

 

But i never said i expected rich people to care though.

And some actually do, hence the term philathropist. Wealth doesnt automatically make someone a shitty person.

But the only way to really fight exploitation is by boycotting the companies who do the exploiting. The ceos of these exploitative companies dont care about human misery but they understand dollars. If everyone who gives even a little bit of a shit would practice conscientious consumerism we might get somewhere.

Vote with your dollar, is what i always say!

I dunno what the point of your last comment is as i think it goes too far off topic and i dont like when people demonize the poor without giving it any deep, nuanced thought so i'm not going to respond.

 

What? I didnt say there werent success stories, i dont think that was my point at all. I think i even specified that the disadvantaged in the first world still have way more advantages than the third world, hence Ben Carson (total weirdo though)

And i still think youre looking at it through very Americanized lenses

 

No, I am not demonizing, at all....You misunderstood.

I was responding to what you said about parents that are poor and are too tired or whatever...read again what you wrote.... to care anymore.....It was what you said.....that triggered what i said.....

 

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying.

Providing funding for neighborhood health services like planned parenthood to provide free and easy access to birth control helps, but you and i both know what will happen to planned parenthood under this administraion.

 

Yes, the problem will be made much worse...which I was fighting so hard against....

not to mention other issues I was fighting against, as well.

 

It's a matter of statistics. Sure there are some people like Carson who make it. Carson got a scholarship to Yale in the early 70s. (Surely his race had nothing to do with it.) And then on to University of Michigan Medical School and residency at Johns Hopkins! Quite remarkable achievements. And then on to a brilliant political career as an African-American Republican--a rare and valued commodity in his party. Maybe we could all be like Ben if we put our minds to it. I guess Piketty would say two things: (1) statistically, there's as much chance of doing that as winning the lottery (but somebody will win it); (2) it's much more difficult to do it these days than it was in the early 70s. The big divide between the 1% and the rest began under Reagan. Now it's reached the stage where the fortunes are being passed on to people who didn't earn them, while the folks at the bottom fall farther behind. As a parent, I'd certainly tell my kids to aim big and be the best they can be, and if they do that they have a much better chance of succeeding than if they don't even try. But as a Christian, I also recognize that lots of people in need aren't that way because of their own fault, and that I have an obligation to do what I can for them. And like you, I don't envy the rich. Wealth, status, power, and sensual indulgence are not the way to true happiness. Only God is important. But in my political actions, I consider justice and compassion to be important goals. And I find it curious that those who are so content with their lives bitch so much about struggling minorities.

 

Eye

So let me get this straight you agree the students have the right to do the things that you mentioned as you not liking and that there are already changes to something you would prefer – again what is the point of this thread?

Again you admit this isn’t about all lefties or liberals – again what is your point?

LOL - She works for a right wing think tank full of right wingers – If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Are you saying you didn’t look into it but instead decided on ‘looks’?

There have been many studies made looking at the statistical evidence and you dismiss it with a look.

It seems to me that this is one of the problems with many right wing supporters they look on biased emotion not rational research. And that is why so many have voted against their own economic interests.

Yes so have I but that is anecdotal evidence the kind that would not be allowed in a court of law because it is based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Ever heard the story of elephant and the three blind men?

But I don’t think anyone’s saying that – what I’m saying is that many on the right wing of politics want to keep the disadvantaged from being able to fulfill their potential, by keeping them disadvantaged.

The period when upward mobility was at its greatest was during the time when the US was relatively left 1950-70’s the decline and stagnation of mobility has occurred after neoliberal ideas became dominant late 70’s to today

People on the left have for years been warning Americans that the right wing policies that they were voting for would be detrimental to their own financial self interest.

Oh yes all of the left

Ironic really that the right created a huge pool of the disadvantaged and the disgruntled and then have conned them once again into voting against their own self interests and for those of wealth.

 

Eye

I’m still wondering – you claim that white men need to be championed in the same way that disadvantaged groups are but I’m still unsure as to what help you think white men specifically need?

 

A big step would be to stop assuming they have advantages automatically showering down upon them from the heavens and the government just because they are white. Most of the poor in the US are white, a good many of them are men. Are those guys really to blame for Trayvon, Emmett Till, Jim Crow, The KKK, World Wars, Slavery and of course The Crusades? This last election should be a textbook indicator that you can't "shame" people into voting for you by constantly calling them names for just being white.

While this should be a simple enough concept, it's not. Because the general assumption among most of the left and a good part of the minority population as a result is that ALL white men are the scourge of the earth. I know saying this makes it all to easy to plaster me down with the usual "you're just a paranoid old racist white guy" kind of retort, but fight the urge. If we are to speak in terms of equality, then we have to address the disproportionate hatred some people receive just because of their color, not anything they ever did.

Racism and inequality can occur in any direction. The assumption that it's the exclusive domain of white people is trite at best, pure racism at worst. I know it may be hard for some to believe, but quite a few of us old white guys would really like to see people dial down all this fucking hatred. When I was in high school nobody cared what color you were or who's dick you sucked as long as you weren't an asshole. God I miss those days.

 

You touch on one of the more revolting things about class in the US, the raw arrogance of it. If the US system was working well, we would not need safety net programs. Everything we need could be handled with structured entitlements brought about by earnings. But we have been back sliding since the 70s and have fewer people supporting our safety nets while more people begin to draw from it. And that money is not "Trickling Down" from the top, it's being extorted from the middle and lower classes.

Democrats only seem to look for ways to hand out more goodies, usually for votes. But republicans are inclined to just pull the plug and let the most vulnerable Americans fend for themselves. Which pleases their greedy corporate masters (yes, I know, democrats have greedy corporate masters too) and just about any wealthy republican you meet, but the problem is dropped right into the lap of the middle class. Our whole system is a class-based nightmare for the bulk of the population. Breaking into the wealthy ranks is a path lined with banana peels and brick walls, all designed to drain resources, upward.

Our daughter and two classmates wanted to rent a yogurt stand in St. Augustine last summer. The rent was surprisingly cheap and they had saved a stake from internships so they could operate for 5 months. When they applied for their license the city buried them in fees and even a couple of fines for crap they didn't do. It was a classic small town shakedown right down to the required land line and installed fire extinguisher system (remember, it's a yogurt shop about the size of a 2-car garage with no cooking of any sort). They were able to operate for only 3 months before handing it back to the owner, who had others lined up for it. Reminded me of Vegas only the shows sucked. </tangent>

 

Money tends to trickle up, not down.

 

It's one of the most impressive conspiracies in our history. It's brilliant and dastardly on so many levels.

 

George

But is this a reality or are they being manipulated to feel they are being ‘got at’?

I’m white and I come from a country that has plenty of skeletons in is cupboard when it comes to racism and imperialism – do I think I’m being blamed when they are brought up – no.

In fact I’m a history geek and so it’s often me that is bringing them up because for me history can teach us lessons and give us warnings.

To me the lesson from say the KKK is –‘this is bad let’s not do it again’ NOT ‘you are getting at me because I’m white’.

What I think is that some are trying to convince others to be ‘paranoid’ for political gain.

Look at the undercurrent – you are hated and it’s all the lefties fault only the right wing are on your side

But who is telling you this?

But if people convince you that certain people hate you then it likely mean you are then going to reciprocate producing hatred that wasn’t there before.

Well I was born around the same time as you (1961) and growing up I can remember that there was racist and homophobic people and groups.

There was from that time movements to try and educate people and counter bigotry, such as London Pride (1972) Rock against Racism (1976) and Let’s Kick Racism Out of Football (1993). As a teenager and young man I went on several anti-racism demonstrations. Have you ever seen the film Pride set in 1984 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3169706/)

 

george


[quoe]You touch on one of the more revolting things about class in the US, the raw arrogance of it. If the US system was working well, we would not need safety net programs. Everything we need could be handled with structured entitlements brought about by earnings. But we have been back sliding since the 70s and have fewer people supporting our safety nets while more people begin to draw from it. And that money is not "Trickling Down" from the top, it's being extorted from the middle and lower classes. [/quote]

Those on the left were warning what would happen when the US moved away from Keynesian ideas toward neoliberal ones.

Keynesianism is based on the idea of trying for full employment and sees welfare as part of the social contract and distributive taxation as a means of spreading the economic benefits of a society. Neoliberalism actually like unemployment as it pushes down wages and for the same reason does not like welfare and tax cuts (the famous trickle down).

The problem was that Americans kept voting for neoliberal politicians and they still are. Oh I think many were bamboozled right wing people often pushing the ‘god, guns and gays’ line or later ‘identity politics’ and political correctness’ and now it seems this whole ‘everyone hates white men’ gig.

Thing is they cannot say that people were not telling them that what voting against their own and there countries best interest would result in.

 

Ah, but the people who did were shouted down and driven from their careers for being "racist". I personally have no problem hoisting up any REAL racist for all to see, but to listen to today's talking heads it's as if we suddenly sprouted a whole new crop of klansmen and neo-nazis and of course all the murderous, radical Christians trying to resurrect The Crusades. Distractions are to be expected, but this crap is way over the top.

Somewhere in my lineage a long boat ride and a stop in New York made Americans of all of us who followed. They arrived legally. If I question someone walking across the border illegally, the tar and feathers will be applied liberally. What I wonder though is where an American can walk across a border without being arrested? There's some beautiful beaches in Mexico and Cuba!

 

If they don't like the speaker, they don't have to attend the event. It's that simple.
If they have a compelling and irrefutable argument that the person giving the speech is a racist, they can bring it forward to the administrators for review. But I don't think many liberal college kids know the difference between a racist and someone who disagrees with their professors.

And Dennis Kucinich works for Fox News. Does that make him a guilty right winger by association?

No I read 2 and a half of your links. And I dismissed it as rubbish.

You implied that social mobility is not possible. To suggest that once someone ends up living on the streets, they are stuck there forever. Or to say that when someone is born rich, they never go broke.
I don't deny social mobility is easier said than done. I said in my last post that I understand the path to success and achievement is harder road for some than it is for others. But that doesn't make it impossible. And to pollute the minds of struggling people with abysmal messages that there is no hope for them to live with a better-off, taxpaying life, with a roof over their head is sociopathic. If you're in poverty, your goal should be to find a way out. Not sit there and suffer as the government subsidizes your glum existence. I think every humane (left, right, center, up, down, whatever) person wants poor individuals to be uplifted. But they can't all agree on the most ideal method. It's a shame politicans exploit the poor to keep them down for the sake of votes the way they do.

I haven't. How does the story go?

Take the results of this election. Did demonizing white men for being white and male do the left ANY good?

Make up your freaking mind will ya? You seemed to like the idea of identity politics for everyone, now you imply that white men don't deserve any. Which is it? You mentioned white male problems like suicide rates, for example.

 

I honestly haven't followed Chris Rock much in recent years. I do remember his movie "Down to Earth" where he played as a dead black comedian who reincarnated into the body of a rich old white man. And it made comedy value off of the stereotypes of how certain jokes are acceptable only if delivered by people who look a certain way. When he was in the body of an old white dude telling black people jokes in comedy clubs, he got into a lot of heat. Many of Chris Rock's jokes are about racial stereotypes though, and you can't deny that a lot of people see jokes like that as defying political correctness. I guess it's a good thing that people like you me don't see him or Jerry Seinfeld as too politically incorrect and insensitive. Because there are reportedly lots of youngsters who do.

This articles should explain why they don't do colleges anymore in greater detail
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/thats-not-funny/399335/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/chris-rock-colleges-conservative_n_6250308.html