How do you find purpose as an atheist?

Or why not try to be mean to people, eat whatever you like, watch lots of MTV, be a couch potato, join the Klan or the Nazi Party, and sacrifice your dog to Satan?

 

Thanks. For the record, the first paragraph is my own. The second is lifted directly from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life.

 

Sorry man, but your comments simply do not follow. Furthermore, there are practical reasons for not doing what you suggest sarcastically.

First, it's not a good idea to be mean to people because of the social compact under which we all operate implicitly. Being mean to others is a violation of that social compact, and it invites reprisals. Some people might call it karma. If that works for you, I have no problem with it, but I don't believe in a higher power or a universal scale of justice. Other people might call it the Golden Rule.

Eating whatever you want probably isn't a good idea either. I mentioned personal fulfullment in my response earlier. That doesn't mean unbridled hedonism. Personal fulfillment for most mature persons comes from achievement or from pleasing others. Not only does eating whatever you want fail to qualify as either of those sources of fulfillment, but also having poor eating habits will likely eventually lead to health problems later in life at best, or a shortened life in the worst case.

The same comments about being bad for your physical and mental health can be applied to watching too much MTV and being a couch potato.

Joining the Klan or Nazi party, or engaging in any activity that is based on hate is also a violation of the social compact and probably mentally and emotionally unhealthy as well.

Killing your dog is probably stupid, pointless, and unnecessarily mean, unless you are euthanizing him for humane reasons to put him out of misery because of rapidly declining health and there is nothing a veterinarian can do for him.

Lack of belief in a deity is not equivalent to worship of Satan. In fact, probably most non-believers find the concept of Satan to be silly. It is a notion which is clearly an invention of believers in a deity. Satan is just a foil for a relatively benevolent God (although upon examining the story of Job one must wonder just how much more benevolent God is than Satan, if at all). Why would someone who sees no reason to believe in a god as creator have any reason to belief in an anti-god?

Your rhetorical questions in response to my comments are not novel, nor do they follow from them.

 

Your comments weren't very novel either. Essentially your advice is that we can find purpose in life by adopting a program of interpersonal pleasantness, a healthy diet, etc., so that we can live long, comfortable lives--unless something unexpected intervenes, like a car accident, brain cancer, etc. (If that happens, medical science could come in handy, but I think most of us would find it insufficient to deal with the "meaning" problem.) That kind of life may sound fulfilling to you, but it seems bland and impoverished to me. Is that all there is? (By the way, in case you haven't noticed it, lots of mean people seem to "get ahead").

 

Ha. Actually, that's not my advice at all. If you'll look above a few posts to the one in which I respond to bkcmar's applauding my first post in this thread, you'll notice that I explain that the first paragraph is my own, whereas the second one, the one with the "advice," is quoted verbatim from Monty Python's movie The Meaning of Life. I made it with tongue in cheek, as did Monty Python.

The film itself is a mocking jab at the undertaking of philosophy itself, as its audacious title should serve as a big clue. The running joke throughout most of the film is that it appears they will never get to the point -- what exactly is the meaning of life? Near the very end, however, John Cleese comes out and says in a very non-descript manner the things I quoted. The joke of course is that the meaning of life as stated in the film is rather trivial. It's something that nearly anyone can deduce with a little common sense and some life experience. It's hardly a cosmic secret worth spending thousands of years looking for, as human civilization has done.

Anyway, I can scarcely understand why you might think that message or outlook is "impoverished," whereas presumably finding meaning in serving a deity in the hopes of being rewarded with a ticket backstage to the afterlife is somehow rich and fulfilling by comparison. I mean, come on. The cosmic meaning of life is nothing more than kissing the ass of an insecure, petty, arbitrary and capricious, vengeful, angry, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (all contradictory characteristics) Creator of the Universe to curry His favor and find a precious golden ticket to the Heavenly Chocolate Factory?

If not impoverished, it's certainly a childish take on the "meaning" of life. What's wrong with the question itself is that it presumes a "meaning" at all. It presupposes a Creator with anthropomorphic characteristics. If the universe simply evolved from a Big Bang and the matter/energy and fundamental forces of physics that were created with it, then why should it have any meaning at all? What would "meaning" even mean in that context, anyway? Without a sentient creator, "meaning" doesn't have any relevance. The universe just is. The "purpose" of life is to exist. That's it. There's nothing of cosmic significance to it. It's not some grand revelation.

Unburdened by the need for searching for some grand purpose in life, one can take pleasure in all things, big and small. One can take life one day at a time and relish it. That's what stopping to smell the roses means, by the way. Only a wise person could have given that advice. Someone too wrapped up in searching for the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything (it's 42, of course) wouldn't have the wisdom to see that the answer is right under his nose all along, or perhaps at his feet.

By the way, in the many years since letting go of my belief, I have found the cosmos to be far more magnificent and far more complex and beautiful than any that could have been created by any deity imagined by man. To paraphrase, it is not only more wondrous than we might imagine; it is more wondrous than we could imagine. Keeping abreast of popular reports of recent scientific discoveries or watching Carl Sagan's magnificent 1980 PBS television series Cosmos or the BBC's more recent series Planet Earth is a good start to begin to appreciate just how wonderful and intricate the world is.

In contrast, the Bible and its description of the world is so puny and unimaginative, and well, archaic. The real world as uncovered by modern scientists is so much more glorious in scale and in detail, and far more weird and surreal. I feel sad for those who cannot let go of the chains of belief, because they really do hold those persons back and keep them from seeing beyond the confining dogma inevitably associated with belief.

The "meaning problem?" It's only a problem if you insist on finding meaning. Once you let go of that search, the problem goes away and you are liberated. Yes, it's something of a paradox.

 

My apologies. It's been a few years since I saw that film. Is that the one where the mob of topless chicks chases the dude off the cliff?

Assuming that Monty Python is right!

I think you have me confused with a fundamentalist. I don't believe in an afterlife.

I totally disagree. I agree with psychologist Viktor Frankl that the "quest for meaning" is a basic and necessary human drive. Frankl developed his theories in a Nazi concentration camp where he noticed that the difference between those who held up under the experience and those who were destroyed by it was the ability to find some meaning in life. Frankl emphasized that it did not need to be some single grand cosmic meaning. It could be as simple as memories of a loved one or appreciation of sunlight falling through the cracks of a room. To help his patients find meaning, Frankl asked such questions as "Why don't you take your life?" (obviously he worked before malpractice lawyers were a major force in society), and "Is there anything you'd give your life for?" That's the kind of meaning I'm talking about. And I guess it could be bland, depending on the individual.

Now on this, I largely agree. Well put. To paraphrase Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas,"The Kingdom of Heaven is everywhere around us, and we do not see it." I think you just summed up the main point of Genesis 2. But I think that the seeker can get a better appreciation of the roses by asking questions about meaning.

Congratulations. I'm also an admirer of Carl Sagan. He was truly inspired.

Only if taken literally. It falls flat as a science treatise, but that's not its purpose. If read from an historical/metaphorical perspecitve, the Bible can provide an infinite source of meaning. [/QUOTE]

 

Yes. It's worth another look if you haven't seen it in a while. It's deliciously naughty.

My apologies. It is easy to presume too much in internet discussions, especially when one is unfamiliar with his discussion partner.

That's an excellent and very thoughtful and insightful response. Are you really 19? If so, I am amazed at your depth of insight. Hell, I'm impressed at any rate, 19 or not.

Anyway, if that's what you mean by purpose, then I quite agree. Sure, the unexamined life is not worth living and all that. We all need a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Based on what you wrote about Frankl's work, I think it could be something as simple as a passion for a hobby or the love of one's family. Surely the thought of how terribly taking one's own life would affect one's loved ones has stopped many a potential suicidal person from going through with it. I surely agree.

Thanks. Again, I agree that asking questions and being curious is a good thing. I did not mean to suggest that one should go merrily along his way without thinking and be blissfully ignorant. Calling it being a seeker is a fine way to look at it. I was referring mostly to the unburdening of finding a Christian "meaning" of life, as in living here as being a waystation on the way to the Kingdom of Heaven. Personally, I find that vacuous, but it works for a lot of folks.

Yeah, the world is a dimmer place without him.

Well, I hope you'll excuse me for making the mistake of assuming a literal reading. I live in the Bible Belt, and far too many people around me do take it and its cosmology too literally. As for the infinite source of meaning business, we'll have to agree to disagree. For wisdom about life, and for philosophy, for me there are far better books out there. The Bible has got to be the most overrated book ever.

Thanks for the interesting discussion, and thanks for being respectful and cool about it.

 

Thank you too. From one Bible Belt inmate to another, Namaste.

 

only ego needs to imagine purpose
discard ego
enjoy what is
while leaving it unharmed for others to enjoy also, and to enjoy itself

or add to it
without harming it
so that all might enjoy that too

only harm is the one evil
all else is good
even chaos, perhapse especially chaos, is sacred.

do not take chaos in vain
by creating it gratuitously

there is no other demonic thing
then to cause harm

there are many mysterious and unknown things
some may be dangerous
but none exist only to cause harm

if you need a reason to not cause harm
think of the things you could be enjoying
if no one had harmed them

think about your example
by it, more will remain unharmed to be enjoyed

you need not imagine gods
though gods there might be

your unseen friends need not be gods
only unseen and wishing to cause no harm

how do you add to what is without harming it?

infrastructure in harmony with nature
and creating beauty, to share, with all.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Make your own purpose. Since you dont believe in god, you dont have to do what he wants you to do, you get to do what you want you to do.

 

it isn't quite that simple. nor for that matter do i believe there has to not be something close enough to being a god, at least in the sense of being both big and invisible.

but doing what you want to do, everything we do, effects the surroundings we all have to live in. do what will make the world everyone has to live in one in which everyone can find real gratification, certainly.

all that i said about harm and the causing of suffering being the one true evil applies.

and does so equally, whether there is one god, no god or zillions of them.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Excuse me are you saying that everyone should try to make the world one in which we can all find gratification??

Are you listening to yourself. Your basically saying "Your purpose here is to make sure everyon else finds gratification"

This is bullshit, dont tell me what my purpose is. If i say "to hell with everyone, my purpose is to sit on my couch and eat cheetos" than that is my purpose.

 

my purpose is to live until i am dead

without producing too much

or consuming too much

the bible tells me all of earth this is mine to do with as i please

[my purpose is to fight the bible]