How can I compassionately ... hijack your thread?

I like the way you put that. It totally brings together yoga and Buddhism, yogis and buddhists will often fight about "Self" and "no-self" it is so silly, they are talking about the same thing... the one conciousness, the oneness...

 

more on anatta

by Thanissaro Bikkhu

"Books on Buddhism often state that the Buddha's most basic metaphysical tenet is that there is no soul or self. However, a survey of the discourses in the Pali Canon -- the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings -- suggests that the Buddha taught the anatta or not-self doctrine, not as a metaphysical assertion, but as a strategy for gaining release from suffering: If one uses the concept of not-self to dis-identify oneself from all phenomena, one goes beyond the reach of all suffering & stress. As for what lies beyond suffering & stress, the Canon states that although it may be experienced, it lies beyond the range of description, and thus such descriptions as "self" or "not-self" would not apply."

 

Soul, essence, oversoul, they're all roughly the same type of concept, which is different from "consciousness" as awareness, because a soul, essence, self, or oversoul, is not the same as awareness, as awareness is a property of a being ("the being is aware") and the other concepts are some kind of form of being, whether tangible or intangible (just "the being is").

(And Kharakov, I was using the definition that correctly illustrates the etymology of the word, which is how the word originally came into use and meaning, so your definitions, although correct, only illustrate the degree to which the word has become how to say perverted from its original meaning.)

Here's my point. Awareness, as consciousness was originally meant to describe, is a property of being, not an actual form of being itself. Awareness REQUIRES a being's existance in order for there to be awareness. It is not stand-alone separable from a being, because awareness depends on certain functions in order to be aware (such as sensation and recognition).

The problem I see with saying that there is a universal awareness, that is, there would have to also be some kind of universal being which is capable of sensing and recognizing, in order for such a universal awareness to exist. And that is akin to saying "there is some kind of God out there which is aware of everything and doesn't have a tangible form." Which Buddhism DEFINITELY didn't teach.

Now if you want to use universal consciousness as a FORM of being, that again is much like saying the above, but this time around it implies a universal awareness of that "consciousness."

I don't disagree that we are all connected in some way, but I highly disagree that "consciousness" is the way in which we are all connected. To me, saying "universal consciousness" is almost nonsense, and its akin to saying "soul," or "oversoul," or "spirit," or "essence" as separable from our bodies. And Buddhsim taught that there is no such thing which is separable from our bodies that defines us.

 

Note, before you get your panties all in a tiff and starting taking me seriously... here is a funny picture.



God, man lighten up, fundementalist buddhism is just as fucked up as fundementalist christianity... see the unity in things dude, come on.

It is not seperate from our bodies, it is not seperate at all... THERE IS NOTHING SEPERATE, it is all one. This one conciousness that is all with no seperation, is what Buddha realized. The yogis called this the self, and the path of yoga is about uniting with the Self... Buddha in a cosmic jokester type way, saw some of these yogis had not reached nirvana and were ego tripping on the Self concept... A true yogi knows that once he/she merged into the Self, into the one conciousness, it is realized that there is no concepts in this Self, no concept of oneness... it simply is. Even that concept must be left behind. It cannot be explained in words, it is simply experienced. Nirvana. Now some yogis reach this state, what Buddha called Nirvana, like my guru Neem Karoli baba, and they call it the Supreme Self... but they understand that what they realized isn't able to be conceptualized, they are in the Buddha state, same as buddha, they just use a DIFFERENT MAP OF CONCIOUSNESS... It is only fucked up buddhist with thier heads up thier asses that don't know they got the cosmic joke that can't SEE that BUDDHA is talking about the SAME THING as CHRIST AND YOGIS and on and on... They reach the same state using different maps, different concepts... One works for one, another works for another, but it all leads to the same place.



HERE NOW!

There is no escape from the unspeakable truth! Buddha understood this. Can't you hear his cosmic laugh, laughing across the one conciouness, with NO SEPERATION. Buddha is the GREAT SELF. BUDDHA REALIZED THE SELF, and called it "No Self" Yogis realized THE NO SELF and called it SELF


NOBODY IS GOING NOWHERE AND DOING NOTHING

JUST BE!


PS: what's up with the sword, you gonna chop somebody?

 

Hikky Z, I think I might be wrong. That or there's just no way to convey what I'm thinking. So I'll just let you have the last word on this one.

That, and I feel bad for hijacking this thread.

Peace~

 

That dis-indetifying with all phemenon, sounds a lot like Ramanan Marashi's trip, he was into the same thing, yet used the concept of Self.
So for some the concept works and other it doesn't. THe point is finding the one conciousness, you find it, you go into it, you go into places, that you cannot describe, that are impossible to put into words...

that are so zen... you see why Buddha's teaching are so valid, whether you are a Buddhist and yogi or a christian mystic or whatever... they guy found it, right here and now!

That's in my understanding of the Buddha... He was hanging around with Yogis who used the concept of Self and weren't escaping the cycle of death and rebirth... Not that he is trashing all yogis, it was just the yogis at the time around him that he hung out with weren't doing it for the dude, thus he found his own trip and ran with it deep inside under the bodhi tree... It leads to the same place... yogis and buddhas are both going after liberation from suffering.


YOGIC MASTER = BUDDHA
BUDDHA = YOGIC MASTER

Just different maps of conciousness. what works for you? That is the question... another good one, is who are you? WHO am i?

Hmmm

I can't be pinned down on a word, no matter how much I used and like the Self concept, as I merge deep into the Self, I must give up all concepts... I must.


*bows to the lotus feet of his fellow posters*

 

Well, first off, I'm NOTHING like a fundamentalist Buddhist. If anything, I'm part Zen Buddhist, and that's all about finding your own path, not following one layed out for you (though the Buddha's words help).

And, like I said, I don't disagree that everything is one, I just don't think it's connected through consciousness. I see the unity in things, just not the same way you do.

Well, I definitely don't believe Christ was enlightened. That's a different argument though.

It's fine if Buddha and other yogis are all talking about the same thing, but in this case, we aren't, and we've made that terribly clear already. What's your point?

Yes we are all headed for the same place, but some are on a path that leads there, others are not. Eventually we'll all make it on the correct path to Nirvana, but it's always useful to bash some skulls and compare ideas, to make sure that we are on the correct path (or to find it).

If they try to chop me. But in the meantime, it looks cool. :H The sword is representative of honour, loyalty, and chivalry; these are all things I believe heavily in.

I don't think this thread belonged here in the first place, haha. If you want to PM me if you think of something to add or explain, feel free. =)

 

I only ever have one point, that we are all one conciousness and all is conciousness, there is no seperation. I know this, I'm a beginner in knowing it still struggling with maya which leads those on the path toward matter (illussion) and away from spirit (truth) through ignorance and confusion (which your words are a good example of), and I'm trying to understand all the details of this supreme truth. Which includes everything. Here's some Zen...

take your sword and when you see Buddha walking down the road, chop his head off? The hen eats. Cats sit. The sound. Yes. Yes? Yes! No! Ho Ho Ho...


Contemplate this for 11 hours in zazen meditation, if you move I will smack you with a ruler!

 

I only ever have one point, that we are NOT all one consciousness and all is NOT consciousness, there IS a separation. I know this, I'm not a beginner in knowing it still stuggling with ... what is Maya anyway?

The Buddha explained in the Second Noble Truth that Ignorance is the beginning of Volitional Formations, and that Volitional Formations lead to Consciousness. If this is true, and I don't doubt what The Buddha found to be true, then that means consciousness is a condition based on volition, or actions. An action happens and consciousness arises. Action is based on Ignorance. In not realizing that you are the one who creates each conscious moment, you create the action that gives rise to consciousness. This means that consciousness does not exist on its own, but rather as a result of action, which in turn is a result of ignorance.

So how can that which is dependently arisen be one with everything and how can everyone be the same consciousness when each individual has an action which gives rise to their own unique consciousness? If we all were of the same consciousness, then I suppose you knew I was going to write this response, at the date, time and place I wrote it from ... correct? I mean, if we are all of the same consciousness, then you are able to perceive with the eye, the very objects that my eye perceives, and you are able to perceive with the ear, the very objects that my ear perceives, and you are able to perceive with the tongue, the very object that my tongue perceives (which happens to be a delicious piece of chocolate, but then you will be able to tell me what kind of chocolate I am eating, or have eaten), and you are able to perceive with the body, the v ery object that my body perceives and likewise with the mind ???

 

"The fundamental principle of Buddhism is that the whole universe is in Limitless-Oneness, it is originally so, and pure, i.e., free from artificial limits of concepts, values and judgments" - Dr. Yutang Lin

Yup, Buddha got it... I agree Doc!




Maya is what is speaking through you, it is what seperates the beloved from the lover, it is what divides and creates suffering and gets human lost in the illussion of seperatness, the illussion that Buddha defeated with his own being, escaping from the cycle of rebirth.


Ram Dass said, "and the funny thing is you’re still not finished. and as far as the buddhist is concerned you haven’t even begun the trip you’re still hung up on form. because he says, baby, it’s all illusion no matter how groovy it gets, the physical plane is obviously an illusion all a dream "


A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, so he escapes the suffering.
Buddha

The Buddha is a cosmic jokester, he is basically after total liberation from suffering, he is willing to make cosmic jokes, such as calling the Self, no self, upon realizing the Self... Because he is all about going beyond concepts.


"I teach that the multitudinousness of objects have no reality in themselves but are only seen of the mind and, therefore, are of the nature of maya and a dream. ...It is true that in one sense they are seen and discriminated by the senses as individualized objects; but in another sense, because of the absence of any characteristic marks of self-nature, they are not seen but are only imagined. In one sense they are graspable, but in another sense, they are not graspable."

[size=-1]-Buddha[/size]​

In the emptiness of form, Buddha found the one conciousness that manifested all form, that are creations of mind, the nature of maya and the dream... Buddha has much wisdom and compassion. ​

Maya is the force that is part of the one conciousness that leads those on the path like it has with you towards ignorance and confusion, towards matter and away from spirit. There is no duality in this, because matter is illussion, it is just objects in conciousness and only give seemingly solidity by our mind.

You are first of all taking the Buddha way too serious... he is a cosmic jokster! and this his his way of liberating you from concepts... sending your mind swinging in circles until it blows... He is about blowing your mind. That's why the Zen monks say his greatest sermon was when he held up a rose, because that's it! That is his greatest sermon.

And I'm with Ram Dass who teaches, "Buddha's 4 noble truths are very straightforward and very simple"

They are, you are making them complex, by taking Buddha's mind blowing ramblings, and they are nonlogical ramblings of a madman! And you are saying they actually something other then very funny cosmic jokes to liberate you from suffering into the one conciousness. If you read that rambling joke of Buddha's and don't at least chuckle at little... then my friend you have a lot of learn about the Buddha. The second noble truth is "the cause of suffering is desire (or craving) is you don't try to hold you don't suffer over the loss..."
Simple truth, deep cosmic joke wisdom! Don't hold... that's it! Let go! It's simple man, BUDDHA IS SIMPLE!

Yes I can percieve of all this were I not so attached, such a beginner and so messed up by Maya... There are example of realized beings, such as Neem Karoli Baba, and Buddha that were able to relate information from supposed 'seperate' individual because they were aware of thier TRUE SELF that percieved all those things.

Imagine you are watching a movie, a calm centered compassionate witness without a personality or a body, and this calm you is so into the movie that you become one of the characters, so much that you feel the character's pleasure and pain, live life out inside its body... that is both your and my predictament... now if you can go inside, really deep, oh much further in... you would see that you are in fact watc calm centered compassionate witness without a personality or a body, and this calm you is so into the movie that you become one of the characters, so much that you feel the character's pleasure and pain, live life out inside its body... that is both your and my predictament... now if you can go inside, really deep, oh much further in... you would see that you are in fact watching a movie, and your ego and body is just a character, its pain and pleasures are no more real then in a dream... and dreams can feel very real. As you turn around in the theature, and look into the blinking light of the projector, you are lead into a center a bright white light of oneness... where all the movies are directed, produced, and acted in by one conciousness... this BEING is able to watch all the movies from beyond space and time, all the movies, and get so absorbed in each of them, it capable of this. In one of the movie, a character says as a part of its script, "I don't think there is one conciousness." You see, I feel no ill-will towards your deceptive speech and confusion... you are just playing you part.


Buddha said, "the consciousness, in its self-nature, pervades everywhere but is not tainted by any part."




Buddha said, "the consciousness, in its self-nature, pervades everywhere but is not tainted by any part."


Duh, he's talking about the one conciousness which at its core is not tainted by the seperate self, the parts... thus a trasendent beyond time and space aspect of our BEING. You can find so many things that Buddha said supporting that it's all ONE consciousness, the supreme wisdom of oneness beyond duality... as much as you can find statements that may seen dualistic or seem to disagree, these are simply ways to liberate beings from concepts and blow thier minds so they can realize the one conciousness. Thus the way Buddha serves the one conciousness which he realized.

Oneness [ichinyo (tathata)]

Lit., "nondual suchness"; that is, things perceived as they truly are as absolute reality (see Suchness). Ichinyo, which appears widely in Japanese Buddhism beginning with the Tendai and Shingon schools, may be understood as an abbreviation of the phrase ichijitsu shinnyo, literally "the One-reality of suchness," or suchness as the all-inclusive true reality. Ichi ("one") here signifies the totality of all things; it refers, that is, to all things grasped nondiscriminatively, in their nondifferentiation or equality, and expresses a denial of relativistic concepts superimposed on things through objectifying thought. This "oneness," then, points not to a single, homogeneous reality underlying all existence, or to the loss of the particularity of things, but rather to the emergence of all things as they are in themselves through the elimination of discriminative thinking.


Ram Dass said, "gate/gate/paragate/parasamgate/bodhi svaha!!
gone/gone/gone beyond/gone beyond beyond/hail the doer!

beyond even conceiving of a place beyond which you can go beyond. who's adventurous enough to want to go on THAT JOURNEY? Do you realize when you go on that journey in order to get to the destination YOU can never get to the destination? In the process YOU must die."

He is speaking to the ego, the ego can take a concept such as "SELF" and make it into a huge ego trip... that was the Buddha point, sure there is a Self, but why not call it "no self" for as you merge with it, you go beyond concepts dude, get on with it. Buddha wants total destruction of the ego. Ego death!

The Oneness is key to our peace, to peace on earth... Imagine humanity as ONE BEING, behaving in this realization, the left hand would not hurt the right hand... we will function like a hive of bees, a group mind, total telepathy. It must start nowhere, NOW HERE. because there is nowhere to go. and nothing to do, and nobody to do it... get it NO BODY, go beyond the body. Find oneness, find one conciousness. Either you are part of the solution or part of the problem. By not accepting oneness, by not being aware it is all one, and there is no seperation, you fail to see that which will save our earth, thus you are part of the problem... yet it so be the will of the one conciousness, we move slowly, we shall wait... here and now, for your to find us, to BE US.

BE US

B-US
BUS
Get on the Bus, we are going nowhere.

The following is a poem by a Buddhist that so beautifully expresses the one conciousness that Buddha realized.

Please Call Me By My True Names

By Thich Nhat Hanh




Don't say that I will depart tomorrow-
even today I am still arriving.



Look deeply: every second I am arriving
to be a bud on a Spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive,
in order to laugh and to cry,
to fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart
is the birth and death of all that is alive.


I am a mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river.
And I am the bird
that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.


I am a frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond.
And I am the grass-snake
that silently feeds itself on the frog.


I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.


I am the twelve-year-old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am the pirate,
my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands.
And I am the man who has to pay
his "debt of blood" to my people
dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one. Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up
and the door of my heart
can be left open,
the door of compassion.

Wow what a cosmic joke!

We shall overcome!


Who am I to argue, yes Buddha I shall be silent now, I have said more then enough.

 

Limitless is a concept. Limitless is a value. Limitless is a judgement. Oneness is a concept. Oneness is a value. Oneness is a judgement.

Yup, Buddha did get it ... I DON'T agree Doc!

Please indulge me and let me hazard a guess here, but are you talking about Mara? If not, then I still do not know who or what Maya is because nothing but me speaks through me. Nothing but you speaks through you. Nothing but they, them, he, she and/or it speaks through they, them, he, she and/or it. Mara is nothing but a concept as much as the Devil is a concept. Those negative aspects of ourselves that does not want to let go of suffering, but would rather cling to/indulge in rules and rituals as long as there is a self to experience sensations, feelings, consciousness ... Greed (Lust), Ill-Will (Anger), and Delusion (Ignorance). The illusion that The Buddha defeated was the concept that there was permanence (Anicca). The illusion that there was something outside of oneself that creates pain and suffering (Dukkha). The illusion that there really is a self that experiences (Anatta).

The Buddha didn't defeat his own being because he realized there was no being to defeat.

And how does a wise man recognize this?

A Wise Man recognizes that all we are made of are four basic elements. That of these four elements the product of our existence is our eyes, our ears, our nose, our tongue, our body and our mind. That associated with our eyes are visual objects, associated with our ears are auditory objects, associated with our nose are objects of odors, associated with our tongue are taste objects, associated with our bodies are tangible objects, and associated with our minds are thoughts. That when the eye and its associated object come into contact a visual sensation is produced, and with the sensation a perception of sight arises, and with the perception arises mental formation, the result of which is a visual consciousness associated with contact between the eye and visual objects. That when the ear and its associated object come into contact an auditory sensation is produced, and with the sensation a perception of sound arises, and with the perception arises mental formations, the result of which is a audible consciousness associated with contact between the ear and auditory objects. That when the nose and its associated object come into contact a sensation of aroma is produced, and with the sensation a perception of smell arises, and with the perception arises mental formations, the result of which is an aromatic consciousness associated with contact between the nose and aromatic objects. That when the tongue and its associated object come into contact a sensation of taste is produced, and with the sensation a perception of taste arises, and with the perception arise mental formations, the result of which is a gustatory consciousness associated with contact between the tongue and flavor objects. That when the body and its associated object come into contact a sensation of tangible solidity is produced, and with the sensation a perception of touch arises, and with the perception arise mental formations, the result of which is a tangible consciousness associated with contact between the body and tangibles. That when the mind and its associated object come into contact a sensation of thought is produced, and with the sensation a perception of thought arises, and with the perception arise mental formations, the result of which is verbal dialogue and mental images, or mental consciousness associated with contact between the mind and thoughts.

So you see, all we are is a walking, talking, breathing, eating, hearing, seeing, thinking sense organ ... nothing more ... nothing less ... that's it. We exist based on our contact with sense objects and the sensations we receive when we come into contact with sense objects, the feelings we attach to these sensations, and the labels we attach to the feelings. We either like or dislike our feelings, or neither-like-nor-dislike our feelings. Suffering comes when we crave these feelings and cling to them. It is the craving and clinging that produces the illusion of existence. It is the illusion of existence that produce birth, aging, illness, death, sorrow, lamentation, grief and despair. Why? Because we cling to those very sensations we crave so much. The craving creates the illusion of self, because it is in the experience of feelings that we create a notion of self. Without the contact with feelings there is no experience, nothing to call a "self". When clinging stops, volition ceases. When volition ceases, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form ceases. When name and form ceases, the six base senses cease. When the six base senses cease, contact ceases. When contact ceases, feeling ceases. When feeling ceases, craving ceases. When craving ceases, clinging ceases. When clinging ceases, existence ceases. When existence ceases, birth ceases. When birth ceases, death ceases.

In other words, Ignorance is the root of Dependent Origination. Ignorance is not realizing we create each conscious moment by our clinging. Hence we are the creators of our own suffering, sorrow, lamentation, and despair. Not some force outside of our self, but us. Not Mara, not God, not the Devil, Not some mystical division of lost humanness and illusions of separateness.

And you, friend, are not taking The Buddha serious enough. The only cosmic jokester around here is our concept of identity, believing that we exist as anything other than false notions or views. And because of these false views we continue to propell ourselves through endless cycles of rebirth pushed by the winds of our own volition ... Kamma!

What did you get out of that sermon?

That's It !!!

Then you haven't read the First Noble Truth. If you had, you would have found that it simply tells you what matter is, what sensations are, what perception is, what mental volitition is, and what consciousness is. Nothing too difficult there. Plain and simple. Nothing complex about it. Nothing "mind blowing", "nonlogical", "rambling" or "funny" about it. Plain and simple, basic science.

Ahhhhhhh ... alas, something said with a ring of truth ... but ... I wonder ... are you quoting something you read, or is this something you discovered on your own? Do you have a realization of what you said, or is it just something you understand? There is a difference you know ... between realizing and understanding.

Dude ... There is no Maya [Mara]. Stop blaming things on something that doesn't exist. If you're messed up, it's you messing yourself up. Plain and simple. That's it! It's all you attaching feelings on things you either like or dislike. No one, and no thing causes you to be messed up. No one, and no thing causes you to become angry, causes you to hate, causes you to like, causes you to love, causes you to dislike, causes you to choose this over that or that over this. No one, and no thing does anything to you other than you your self.

Show me !!!

Show me !!!

Show me where he applies consciousness outside of anything not mutually dependent on volition, and where he applies volition outside of anything not mutually dependent on ignorance.

Show me !!!

Show me !!!

Wisdom (Panna) arises from Samadhi (deep concentration), and Smadhi arises from Sila (morality). Samadhi cannot arise without Sila, and Panna cannot arise without Samadhi. When you cannot control the body, speech or mind, you cannot enter Samadhi. Samadhi only occurs when the mind is still and quiet. The Buddha, again quite simply, laid this out in the Noble Eightfold Path: Sila (Right Action, Right Speech, Right Livelihood); Samadhi (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration); Panna (Right View, Right Intention). Right Action and Right Speech are a product of the mind. When speech or bodily action occurs, it must first be produced within the mind as volition. Volition is the will to act, and on having the will to act one does. Whether right or wrong. And having acted arises a consequence. With wrong bodily action arises wrong consequences, with right bodily action arise right consequences. With wrong speech arises wrong consequences, with right speech arises right consequences. When one goes about trading and dealing in merchandise that causes harm to other sentient beings, or in trading and selling other sentient beings, then harmful consequences arise, and when one does not trade in merchandise that cause harm, or trade and sell other sentient beings, there arise right consequences. When there arise right consequences, calm and peace abides within the mind and the mind is still. This is Sila. When the mind is still Samadhi arises. With continual and sustained Sila, Samadhi develops. With continual and sustained Samadhi, Wisdom develops. With continual and sustained Wisdom, arise Omnisience. With the arising of Omniscience, oneness and duality vanish. Concepts of space and time vanish. Time is an illusion dependent on clinging to views of a past, present and future. The future does not exist, the past does not exist. All that exist is now ... the present moment. It is when we cling to the present moment that we create volition which gives rise to the next moment, which we then cling to, which then create volition which gives rise to the next moment, ... and in the clinging to views and notions we give rise to concepts of a future. Expectations on how we wish the next conscious moment to appear, we cling ever so tightly to the present conscious moment, hoping to change it so that the next conscious moment will appear the way we expect or want it to ... The Buddha said, "... Not getting what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging is suffering." ... and the five aggregates of clinging is the First Noble Truth; Matter, Sensations, Perceptions, Mental Volition and Consciousness, and likewise not getting what one wants is to experience disappointment from misplaced expectations.

So far it seems you have only read Ram Dass. Gate, gate, paragate, parasumgate, bodhi svaha is a Tibetan Buddhist phrase from the Heart Suttra which literally means ... beyond (gone), beyond (gone), far beyond (gone), utterly far beyond (gone), enlightenment! Meaning that in order to attain enlightenment, one must continually to stive to move beyond, way beyond, and even further beyond that. That if you think you have reached enlightenment, then you haven't gone far enough yet. This is not a saying of Ram Dass.

Silly man. One can never attain enlightenment when enlightenment is the goal. You make it sound as if "dying" is a goal in order to attain enlightenment. Dying only gives rise to birth, and birth to death. Enlightenment is a by-product, a result, not a goal to strive for. If you need a goal, then set your goals on going beyond suffering, to letting go of clinging, letting go of craving, letting go of feelings, letting go of contact ... letting go of ignorance. Let go of trying to create that next conscious moment. Be Here NOW !!! There is no There, no future. There is no There, no past. There is only NOW, and even NOW doesn't exist. It is only in clinging to notions and concepts of NOW that NOW exists because once NOW arrives it has already gone, and in clinging to NOW you create the next NOW to be the present NOW ... ad infinitum ... which is why you've been here so long, and which is probably why you will continue to be here another infinite round.

Sigh !!!

Samphappalapa ...

Seems we are both guilty of that one ...

 

In responce to your repeated "show me" statements, here we go! to nowhere! get it, now here!

This is post is about the Buddhist school that gets the closest to Buddha's realization

A Buddha is someone who has managed to obliterate all impressions of himself, all his perfumings of the seeds, and escape the wheel of samsara. Such alaya consciousness fully cleansed of karmic sediment is known as amalavijñâna, or "pure consciousness". taken from wikipedia, only conciousness school website.
This is the Oneness I speak of... as your merge into the Oneness, you go beyond conceptual reality, and thus there can be no concept of conciousness or oneness even though they accurately describe reality, they fail as all words due to capture the experience... Thus this is where all the schools of Budduhism come together.

It's very Zen.


And it contains in it, an element of compassionate humor, of absurdity at the predictament of humanity lost in seperation. Yes suffering sucks, Buddha said it, but taking it serious will make it worse for everybody!

Buddha thinks, "Sigh, I wish darrelkitchen would lighten up, and realize...
HE ALREADY GOT THE COSMIC JOKE! God, he needs some light chi, and stop fucking everybody up with his heaviness, so is his karma, and the ganjaprince, man does he get into those ego trips, remember to laugh at yourself buddy... God gave those graceful ego trips to you to show you how absurd the ego is... laugh till your head comes off! wohoo! I hope he laughs at the zen story that is coming up in this post... I hope he pulls the stick out of his ass, it is really lodged up in there, the poor being things he is seperate from Buddha conciousness that is all."

The Buddha was known to have a good sense of humor. The same applies to many great Buddhist gurus and thinkers after him. Here is a zen story that captures the Buddha's cosmic joke humor...
There was a young monk in China who was a very serious practitioner of the Dharma.

Once, this monk came across something he did not understand, so he went to ask the master. When the master heard the question, he kept laughing. The master then stood up and walked away, still laughing.

The young monk was very disturbed by the master's reaction. For the next 3 days, he could not eat, sleep nor think properly. At the end of 3 days, he went back to the master and told the master how disturbed he had felt.

When the master heard this, he said, "Monk, do u know what your problem is? Your problem is that YOU ARE WORSE THAN A CLOWN!"

The monk was shocked to hear that, "Venerable Sir, how can you say such a thing?! How can I be worse than a clown?"

The master explained, "A clown enjoys seeing people laugh. You? You feel disturbed because another person laughed. Tell me, are u not worse than a clown?"

When the monk heard this, he began to laugh. He was enlightened.






So onto the truth... not I modified this wikipedia entry, to make it more then a theory. I can provide the link upon request, in case you want to look into it.
Consciousness-only



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In Buddhism, consciousness-only (Sanskrit: vijñapti-mātratā, vijñapti-mātra, citta-mātra; Chinese: 唯識; Pinyin: wei shi; Japanese: yuishiki) is the truth that explans how all existence is nothing but consciousness, and therefore there is nothing that lies outside of the mind. This means that conscious-experience is nothing but false discriminations or imaginations; a provisional antidote; thus, the notion of consciousness-only is an indictment of the problems engendered by the activities of consciousness. This was a major component of the thought of the school of Yogācāra, which had a major impact on subsequent schools after its introduction in East Asia.

So there it is... It's a part of Buddhism whether you like it or not, mister Buddhist fundementalist!

The point is, we are at a time when all the religions are beginning to come together and stop fighting, see the oneness, see the unity in all the teachers, see the ONENESS...


And not only all the religions but religions and science as well...

A comment about Physics of the Soul by Amit Goswami


"In a brillaint integration of science, spirituality, and consciousness... physicist and author Dr. Amit Goswami uses quantum physics to describe mystical concepts such as the immortality of the soul, reincarnation, and the afterlife. Dr. Goswami describes conciousness as more then an abstract concept--as a reality primary and fundamental to science, and is his starting point for all scientific conduct. In Physics of the Soul, he integrates descriptions from the Tibetan Book of the Dead with his knowledge of quantum physics and concludes that reincarnational memory--past lives and our access to them--is an absolute, scientifically provable truth."

I'm only about halfway through the book but still haven't read all of his first book Self Aware Universe... because I tend to read several books at the same time... but already I have found my number one scientist of all time. He has convinced me and confirmed for me the truths I already know... and that main truth, that we are all one conciousness! And that everything, all so called "matter" is conciousness!

It is simply undeniable by me... I know it in mystical truth as a beginner, and want to know it more and more each now here moment, as I go nowhere. And science backs it up... shit how can I doubt? answer, I can't and I don't anymore... Now I just want to dive into this truth!

This book should be TAUGHT IN EVERY SCHOOL, not the ID theories that fundementalists promote that imply a intelligent creator that is seperate from it's creation and seperate from us... that is the work of maya! And maya ulitmately doesn't exist, it is simply a puppet of the one conciousness that does all, is all and so on! Seperateness is an illussion, it's all one

 

Whew ... [fanning my face] ... that's a lot of dukkie ... and it sure smells ... like ... peeeeeyuuuuu ...

The Buddha in somewhat more profound & exact in detail:
'All exists': Kaccana, this is the one extreme.... '.
'All does not exist'; this is the opposite extreme !!!

Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Thus-Come-Thus-Gone One teaches a subtle Dhamma in this Middle Way:

ignorance casues mental construction
mental construction causes consciousness
consciousness causes name-&-form
name-&-form causes the-6-senses
the-6-senses causes contact
contact causes feeling
feeling causes craving
craving causes clinging
clinging causes becoming
becoming causes birth
birth causes ageing, decay, & death ...

Such is the arising of this whole mass of suffering !!!

That's It !!!

Nothing more ...

Nothing less ...

And certainly none of that BS ...

That's It !!!

 

you need some amalavijñâna, friend

Well a cosmic joke, is you already have it And quantum mechanics proves it, take that in your pipie and smoke, it brother.

Thanks for the post, your reference to the smell of poopie shows you are lightening up about what I would call your misunderstading of the buddha's realization and teachings... that whole thing you went into ignorance leading to this, leading to that, leading to so on... is just Buddha making a cosmic joke, he is trying to blow minds, so the seperate self exploded into the one conciousness that is already is.

It's ok, the seperate self of you will dissolve, and you will wake up into Buddha conciousness...

The chirst heart is strong in you.

I hope your BURN AWAY, BURN AWAY IN HEAVEN BLISS, so there is no more suffering in you, no more rebith, and all that is left is ever-new bliss and total knowledge of the supreme truth. Mother lover!

 

So Darrell, what does suffering cause?

 

Somebody asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?" He said: "Dry shit on a stick."

 

Quantum mechanics proves no such thing. Quantum mechanics is FLAWED in at least one way. Quantum mechanics, as it exists today, makes it possible to prove these two statements: (1) an infinite number of paralell universes exists, and (2) our universe doesn't exist.

Now think about that. If quantum mechanics can prove our universe doesn't exist, THEN THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG, because our universe definitely exists in at least some way (since we are experiencing it, it must at least exist as information).

Quantum mechanics is a THEORY. It actually has NOTHING to do with consciousness whatsoever, and rather has to do with eigenstates, probabilities, and statistics. If you go to the Wikipedia page for quantum mechanics, and hit "find" and type in "consciousness," you will find NO RESULTS. Consciousness has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with quantum mechanics, and I can't stand a moron like you using something that most people don't know about to falsely justify his own beliefs.

Now, if you want to use quantum mechanics to prove it, then at least learn some rudimentary quantum mechanics first!

AND I think it's even funnier how you (much like MollyThe Hippy) ignore any wisdom that there is to be found in what others say, and just insult them.

The problem with the article from Wikipedia here that you took, is, it uses "consciousness" where it should be using "volitional energies." Again, CONSCIOUSNESS is another term for AWARENESS, consciousness is NOT will or desire!

"Consciousness-only," as is described in the Wikipedia article, is an extension of Buddhism, not a part of the original philosophy that was taught. People who were not Enlightened, and wanted an answer to the question, "If there is no soul, what is it that reincarnates?" devised this idea of "consciousness-only" using "seeds" as an explaination, when it's a false explaination, as the Buddha did not teach it.

In other words, Buddhist-"wannabes" who weren't wise enough to understand the Buddha's words, came up with their own additions to Buddhism in order to explain their lack of understanding. Consciousness-only, then, is NOT a part of true Buddhism.

Even reading the history of the idea on Wikipedia, it explains ... "The major framework of Yogācāra theory was developed by the two brothers Vasubandhu and Asanga." This was NOT taught by the Buddha, or by the Dalai Lama, or any person with true knowledge of what Nirvana is.

And do you have ANY idea how many critiques of Amit Goswami's works there are among reputable scientists?!

Here's one: http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ursa/philos/goswami.htm

This includes many sections that debunk his ideas, but two of the more important ones seem to be these:

"3.1 Unity of mind: not attributable to quantum mechanics"

"3.2 Psi phenomena: not attributable to quantum mechanics"

It explains that Goswami is confident that he's "proved" these using quantum mechanics in some way, when in fact, he never even gave an ARGUMENT using quantum mechanics for some of the parts that he relies on. And real quantum mechanics physicists are pointing out, that he's wrong. Here's a good explaination of why he's wrong regarding psy phenomena:

"The empirical data that exist (for instance that produced by the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research laboratory, which Goswami cites) indicate only anomalous channels of control and information. It is not directly indicative of non-locality as such, and certainly not of specifically quantum non-locality. Non-locality in general, and quantum non-locality in particular, are characteristics of possible models that could perhaps be formulated. As far as I am aware, however, nobody has yet even formulated a model of psi phenomena to a level of detail that enables the prediction of experimental psi results. Therefore the involvement of any kind of non-locality, let alone quantum non-locality, is far from being established. All that has been established so far is the mere existence of the psi phenomena."

The point is, Amit Goswami, in all his "braininess," is using incomplete theories on which he bases his assumptions, and then labels them as things like "monism" when they're actually a dualism.

-----

And, in addition, GanjaPrince, you failed to show the other half of the things which Darrell asked for.

You were trying to show these:

When in fact, you have shown that these are NOT the Buddha's words, merely the words of people who do not have the wisdom that the Buddha had regarding his own philosophies.

In fact, you have failed completely to show that the Buddha said ANYTHING regarding what you're saying. The Buddha taught that everything was all One, yes, but not that everything was all a single consciousness. A better knowledge of dependent origination as the Buddha taught it would show you that he would not agree with a word you are saying.

Instead of using the Buddha's words (which you claim he said), you use others' words, the words of two brothers who were not enlightened, and the words of a SINGLE quantum scientist that has based his ideas on incomplete theories which he has not proven in any manner, and whose works are both HIGHLY aggrandized (i.e. a press report based off of Amit's works, with the headline "scientific proof of God's existance" which is FAR from his original point) and HIGHLY criticized by others who know more about his field than he does.

 

I think I may be able to answer that:

Suffering causes feelings that lead to bad kamma, or unwholesome actions, which produce futher suffering.

 

First of all you should know who you are arguing with, a total madman

Im flipped out dude... here is how I see things, literally as one conciousness... on channel 1 sure I see all your words, but when I look at my computer screen on channel 3...



It's just me and my guru, my guru is everybody, it's all between me and him... He is how the one conciousness personalizes for me most of the time, Im also into Jesus, Buddha and other realized beings... they fucking talk to me dude, Im nuts, But a functioning nut, I do it in the privacy of my own room, hold a job, go to school and know how to play it straight. Nothing illegal about talking to realized beings and them talking back your deepest inner voice and inner being and dreams and visions and books and such.

I read your posts and see the being who you really are and all your posts say, "Sure I agree with you, I am the one conciousness, you are simply me talking about me and the details of me. Don't mind my puppet on channel 1, hikaru zero he is just a passing form, his body will die and rot and all the perfect horrible beauty of his brain will be rotting... Yes here we are as One, We shine... the puppets are ME too yes. There is no seperation... But the intelligence and clear awareness is more real then that which is lost, the egos.


And those egos that think they are into seperation and promote it and promote views other then the true view of the one conciousness are causing the horrors and sufferings on earth. Like the holocaust.


The horrible beauty of the holocaust caused by beings that couldn't percieve oneness and one conciousness and promoted the idea that we are seperate.


Yet it is all part of the drama, part of the divine dance, the leela.

So you see, this is the kind of crackpot nut you are arguing with, my guru was even called "crackpot baba" because he went around naked with just a cracked pot on his head, that he used. and that was his only poccession.

Now on to your points.

I see your point of view. But you must understand I am totally sold on Goswami and I am brainwashed... You are talking to a BRAINWASHED madman, what does it matter who says anything about Goswami... He told me I was right about what I already KNOW. So he's helping me further my divine madness... good for him, he's doing good work.




As far as your understanding of quantum mechanics, the dogs asshole gets quantum mechanics as much as you do... You got to grok quantum mehanics man, you can only understand quantum mechanics when you already understand the truth of the one conciouness, if you are a doubter, skeptic or one of the ignorant, then your just gonna find confusion in it, and other things.






The Dog realizing by it's very loving nature that it is all one conciousness asked, "So what then is science’s problem with the monistic non-dual metaphysics of God? Why aren’t a majority of scientists embracing that position?"

Amit Goswami

The wise physcists that accepted the mystical as valid sceintific truth in his books and his heart, answered while petting the dog, "This one is subtle. Obviously, science must accept and does, that there is only one "substance" or being in reality. Otherwise we get into the problem of dualism. The question is, is that substance matter, or is it some kind of "God substance" that is the basic being? The success of a materialist metaphysics--the idea that everything is made of matter including mind, consciousness, God--now causes a conceptual conundrum. Is God needed?

In eighteenth century, the physicist Laplace, upon explaining astronomy on the basis of the material metaphysics alone declared, "I do not need that (God) hypothesis." Darwin repeated the same contention in biology with his evolution theory; the biological case was made almost foolproof with the discovery of molecular biology. In psychology, Freud, Watson and Skinner, all sang the glory of a materialist metaphysics in their revolutionary investigations. In contrast, the case for a monistic consciousness, consciousness as the ground of being, has become serious only recently within science. It will take a while before this idea catches on."

The Dog asked, "Will you give us some details of the winds of change in science’s position from material moniss one is subtle. Obviously, science must accept and does, that there is only one "substance" or being in reality. Otherwise we get into the problem of dualism. The question is, is that substance matter, or is it some kind of "God substance" that is the basic being? The success of a materialist metaphysics--the idea that everything is made of matter including mind, consciousness, God--now causes a conceptual conundrum. Is God needed?

In eighteenth century, the physicist Laplace, upon explaining astronomy on the basis of the material metaphysics alone declared, "I do not need that (God) hypothesis." Darwin repeated the same contention in biology with his evolution theory; the biological case was made almost foolproof with the discovery of molecular biology. In psychology, Freud, Watson and Skinner, all sang the glory of a materialist metaphysics in their revolutionary investigations. In contrast, the case for a monistic consciousness, consciousness as the ground of being, has become serious only recently within science. It will take a while before this idea catches on."

The Dog asked, "Will you give us some details of the winds of change in science’s position from material monism to a monism based on consciousness? "

Goswami: The crucial question again is, Is God needed? All scientists subscribe to the philosophy of parsimony (Occam’s razor): if an idea is not needed, theoretically or experimentally or both, why use it? But in recent years, both theoretical and experimental gaps, sometimes big holes, have been found in the matter-based science. First, Carl Jung found, from his case studies in psychotherapy, that therapy works better when one ventures outside of the materialist models of psychology, with concepts such as intuition (which is creative and beyond reason), collective unconscious (which is non-local and beyond the materialist dogma of locality), and synchronicity (which is beyond materialist models of upward causation). Later, Abraham Maslow and others discovered the same thing in their psychological study of people: the answer to "who am I?" must involve a self beyond the behavioral ego, a transpersonal self, for those people who can be said to have "positive mental health."

Second, the materialist ontology from the very inception of quantum physics was found to be inadequate for understanding quantum phenomena. Quantum phenomena clearly show discontinuity (as in the Bohr atom) and non-locality (as demonstrated by the celebrated Aspect’s experiment). And the quantum measurement problem -- how quantum waves of possibility that quantum mathematics calculates for objects to become experienced events--cannot be solved without the assertion of downward causation. The great mathematician John von Neumann first saw this. Von Neumann’s ideas were originally dualistic. I made a contribution showing that the quantum measurement problem can be solved with philosophical rigor only if we assert that consciousness, not matter, is the ground of all being.

Third, Stephen Gould and Niles Eldredge discovered punctuated equilibrium in biological evolution--evolution consists of more than Darwinian gradual variation/selection chance and necessity mechanisms. There are punctuation marks in an otherwise continuous prose of Darwinian evolution. Experimentally, they show up as the "missing links" in the fossil data. Theoretically, they point to a non-Darwinian process in evolution with a faster tempo, maybe even a discontinuity, a quantum leap. Rupert Sheldrake made a breakthrough jump from materialist thinking by proposing non-local morphogenetic fields as essential for understanding biological morphogenesis--the building of form from a one-cell embryo. More recently, I myself have been able to develop a theory in which consciousness creatively intervenes in evolution producing the quantum leaps of speciation--the punctuation marks referred to above. My theory also nicely incorporates Sheldrake’s ideas and produces the much-needed understanding of the roll of development in evolution.

Fourtproducing the quantum leaps of speciation--the punctuation marks referred to above. My theory also nicely incorporates Sheldrake’s ideas and produces the much-needed understanding of the roll of development in evolution.

Fourth, in medicine, there has been an accumulation of many cases of mind-body healing, clearly demonstrating "mind over body." But if mind is brain, then how can it cause healing? The physician Deepak Chopra was the first to suggest a model of mind-body healing by proposing that it is quantum healing and works because of the quantum nature of mind and body working on a substratum of consciousness which is the ground of being.

Fifth, there is also much data that are classified under the label "paranormal," telepathy, survival after death and reincarnation, and such. Mainstream science still scoffs at this data. But the sheer volume of it is getting a lot of attention from the public. This data can only be accommodated with a consciousness-based science.

Sixth, I must also mention the philosopher David Chalmers’ work. Chalmers pointed out that the subject-object split awareness that we experience is a "hard question" of consciousness that neurophysiologists are not studying — maybe they cannot study it. If we start with objects or algorithms, we always get to stay at the same level: objects beget objects, and input statements beget output statements, never a subject looking at objects or a subject examining the output statement. This is a very brief summary, of course. Many other scientists have contributed to the monistic consciousness-based paradigm that is now developing. The good news about the new paradigm is that it is inclusive. It includes the old science; does not entirely reject it. And it promises an integration of science and spirituality.

 

Pretty much... lighten up!

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.” Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)



Now that we are here, lets focus on the topic at hand, in reading your responces to my Buddhist trip, you pretty much were upset that I didn't use the historical buddha and used people that came after...

Since when I say "buddha" I was meaning everybody from the bum of the street, to christ, to hitler, to john lennon, to jenna jameson. Because Buddha is all, and all is buddha, Buddha conciousness.

But because you guys are so diggin the historical buddha, I will focus on him. He happens to be a close personal friend. That is RIGHT, I AM IN PERSONAL MYSTICAL contact with the orginal BUDDHA, and Im praying to him to make sure my responces meet his aproval.


*the following is approved through mystical communication by the historical buddha, thought to be the founder of the Buddhist religion*

I have taken much of this from this website
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

It is modified of course, to help illuminate how each and every teaching of Buddha points of the one conciousness!

In the italics are ganja prince cosmic joke punchlines to the Buddha's setups.

Buddha actual words heard by me about these punchlines "it is fun."

Do you approve I ask

Buddha responded, "I do."

I then asked, "is it all one conciousness"

Buddha said, "yeah"

Well there ya have it!

Teachings






The teachings of the Buddha are covered in the articles on Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy. Many Buddhist sects disagree as to what the Buddha actually taught. There seems to be major agreement on these points:

• The Four Noble Truths: that suffering is an inherent part of existence; because of the illussion of seperation that suffering is caused by attachment(craving); because we think the object of our desire is seperate from us and not part of us, and we are not one with it, lost in the dream that craving can be ceased; because we are already one conciousness and people will wake up out of the dream and that following the Eightfold Path will lead to the cessation of craving (and suffering). Yup the buddha knows his shit.
• The Eightfold Path: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Right concentration is the most important, one pointnessed of mind on the one conciousness break through the illussion of seperation. Get your ALL YOUR shit together, you can realize the one conciousness but it helps to live a fucking flowing human life, you get so into the flow that you never suffer... of course you can go beyond even that, there are plenty of mystics that don't even fuckin eat, because they know how to eat the sun! talk about waking up!
• The law of dependent causation: that events are not predestined, nor are they random, but that events are caused by the actions that preceded them. that because nothing is really happening its all one conciousness, sure there are all these thoughts, karam, actions, human call them universes... in the illussion of time and space but they pass. they only exist so we can play, the universe is about our play, leela, getting lost in all these dream and waking up. to where it is all thing one thing that is just BEING, which Buddha called 'Non being" his idea of a joke, this one conciousness, and all the seperation, all the dreams, just passing illussions, nothing more.
• Anicca (pronouce as "anatesa"): That all things are impermanent. yes things pass away, in the one conciousness, nothing at all, just dreams, so empty, form is soo soo empty.
• Anatta: That the perception of a constant "self" is an illusion. Nobody is going nowhere and doing nothing, realize this and there is nothing more to know.

Here are some direct quotes attributed to the historical buddha. That are the most direct at point to it being one conciousness.


Buddha</FONT>We are what we think. All that we are arises With our thoughts. With our thoughts, We make our world.


This is Buddha's way of saying, conciousness creates the world which is conciousness! It's all one!
</FONT> Buddha</FONT>The world, indeed, is like a dream and the treasures of the world are an alluring mirage! Like the apparent distances in a picture, things have no reality in themselves, but they are like heat haze.


So live in the dream in the way that it behaves, don't just go start doing whatever you want... but recognizes it is just a dream. Like be in the world but not of it. It's all one conciousness and this is the nature of it. The dream hurts!


STOP TALKING STOP THINKING


Before I end this post I asked Buddha if he had anything to add, looking at his picture...

He said, "no."


and you will know what I talk and think about!