Hospitals: They kill.

I find this correlation to be fascinating. I'm like living proof of it. When I was in the throes of arterial disease, I lost a tooth to gum disease. I am very anal about my teeth, being a dentist's daughter - brushing and flossing and gargling constantly and seeing a dentist regularly. So it's not that I don't take care of them. What I would like to understand, is which comes first, gum disease or arterial disease? I mean which contributes to which?

 

MOST people who get minor bacterial infections don't die today. The majority of people who got them, who were young, infirm, elderly or had other diseases died even 80 years ago. My point was the majority of minor bacterial diseases don;t kill people, IF they have access to health care.

Like Tara asked, people who already have Mitrial Valve Prolapse ( a form of heart illness) (which is often a result of a bacterial infection, Strep, which may not have been treated properly or in someone who didn't have access to health care when they got the strep, or were too old to have been able to be treated, like my mother, who was born before the advent of antibx) have to have treatment when they have dental work. Most people do not have MVP and do not have problems with this. I am lucky enough to not have MVP and have only had a dental infection once, and it was treated in three days, with antibiotics.

 

Well, they didn't do double blind studies 5000 years ago, but, looking at preserved remains of people who lived then prove otherwise. Ancient Greek doctors describe diabetes, and it was quite prevelent, and totally untreatable. Rameses, the famous Pharoh (yeah, the dude of Biblical fame) died from a tooth infection. This has been proven. Descriptions of thyroid disorders go back at least 3000 years.

The history of medicine is a study of mine. There were PLENTY of now treatable illnesses people died of years ago. The rose colored glasses "no one got sick before we had medicine" is ridiculous. And not founded in fact.

 

This proves you have NO IDEA what I think. I never said CERTAIN things can't help. I said PLANTS DON'T TALK and that certian types of "natural remedies" delay treatment that could help people. Did you READ my history, of more than a decade wasted on acupuncture, chiro, herbs, ect? No, of course not. But, of course, this is just an anecdote. yes, "visualizations" can help, but they don't cure cancer alone. Sure there are spontaneous recovery stories, but these are the exception, not the norm. There is room for alternative medicine, as long as it isn't interfering with REAL help people could be getting. My wasting time with herbs and shit caused me to now have pain that is INTRACTABLE, and only responds to the strongest of pain meds. Yeah, I did "visualizations" I was still in agonizing pain, read ALL my posts before you start dictating what you THINK I think.I am not making dispursions on what I think you are thinking.

Look at infant mortality rates just 100 years ago, and you will see what the difference is. Yes, there were less chronic illnesses back then, as there was SO much more that could kill you, before a chronic illness or something like cancer could get to you.

But, you won't see it, untill you get really sick and need what medicine can provide for you.

 

Good medicine is always open to new ideas, it is rarely "written in stone." Your thinking so may be part of the problem.

 

you're still looking at disease in the midst of the agricultural revolution. go back a bit further to the time before the agricultural revolution, and there arent degenerative diseases of aging. there just arent any. no diabetes, no heart disease, no arthritis, no cancer, none. the agricultural revolution is killing us softly. and in the last hundred years, we've unleashed a pandora's box of chemicals on our heads that we'll probably never recover from. ::sigh::

if you really want to know more about periodontal disease and the link to heart disease, just google, there's lots of info. even the dental journals have been running articles about it for years. and if you want to look at something edgy, google weston price into the equation too.

 

dude, i almost went blind. and i was realllllly sick, because of temporary bandaid solutions provided by modern medicine

i'm pretty healthy now because i dealt with the root cause of my problems.

some people arent prepared to take responsibility for their health. <shrug> some people need to live in dis-ease because they, on some level of their own, need to learn something from it. it's not up to me to make someone take a different path. it's up to each individual to live their own journey.

 

nimh is right, most of our diseases are due to agriculture and animal domestication. People living in settled, high density villiages, usually with animals (most of our infectious diseases originate in herding domestic animals). Diabetes was rare until this century, i believe; it's a product of our horrible diets.
People in the stone age were healthier than most people today. Their diets were natural and varied (unlike the farmer society which depends on very few foods)...this means famine was also rare (because they had such variety to choose from for food). Once you got past infanthood, you were likely to live a very long life unless you had an accident. Studying their tooth and bone structure and stature in general bears this out, they were healthier, and taller, than the farmers that came later, due to the reduction in nutrition that came with agriculture. I just read a little while ago that modern Greeks still have not regained the stature of their stone age ancestors.

I agree, I'm in favor of using both sides, holistic and modern medicine. I don't discount the scientific advances (like vaccines...at least the one's without mercury), but it's a shame to see timeless (yes, it's that old) wisdom being ignored in favor of harsh synthetics.

And again, as far as diabetes being prevalant in ancient greece... well, I didn't know that, and I'll take your word for it for the sake of argument. Most poor people throughout history have had shitty diets, high in starches (read: sugars). Bread may be the staff of life, and you can live on it, but you won't be healthy. That's like ancient junk food. And most people throughout history were poor, so you do the math.

You see how I keep coming back to this, about eating healthy. That is becayse it's the foundation of good health; I believe that is why the ancients like the Hebrews had so many food taboos, and I know it's why prehistoric man was so healthy. My belief goes like this: Prevention is easier than a cure, and eating and living healthy makes you healthy, because every system in your body will function better, especially your immune system. Once you start getting sick, it helps to use a holistic approach to your illness, because illness affects all of you. Improve the diet, use natural remedies or treatments. If all else fails, go to the doctor. I just don't see why we should assume we are unable to help ourselves. The doctor can help, but we should appreciate our own intelligence and ability to heal ourselves. Any drug you take should only help, it shouldn't cure one thing and hurt you somewhere else. That's worthless.

For the record, I had a heart defect as a baby, and had open heart surgery at age one. I'd probably be dead if it weren't for that (though I recently found it's still possible that I could die at any time, out of the blue). So again, I don't discount modern advancements. I just think in many cases they're overused.

 

ok maggie sugar you are the type of person who takes what imformation you want to hear and regurgitate out partially chewed up chicken nuggets, and mold it into one giganto nugget so you can therefore eat it again and get two times for your money, whilst also subjugating all the unnessery "small guys" and making a conglomo.
you stragetically disregard all the information leading up to the conclusion and only focus then on whatever shady conclusion you already predetermined, dirtyin yer fingers that answer is cut and dry so you can paste it all over your refrideeragor.
well, last time i checked, partially hydrogenated chicken nuggets will reform into a conglmo, this much you have me convinced. however, your shady conclusion you have still failed to cite your "credible" source.

i mean come on i asked for the source 3 times, and now this makes 4, and still have yet to see the article.

 

who's going to sit through and read all of your posts? who really cares that much about you? and if that sounds harsh, you are conceited! who the fuck knows everything about you if anything i think you are setting double standards for this thread and are hoping you willl find a stalker boy/girl friend.
look basically it's like this, if you didn't get anything out of using herbs, if you didn't feeel their power and healing energy coercing through your veins, you were either using non-potent/old herbals or you didn't know what the fuck you were doing.
either way if i were you i would stop forsaking my mother with all your blasphemous blabberings

 

WTF does that mean, except for an ad hominem attack? You have no fucking idea what kind of person I am. but, if putting me, and others who employ logic into a nasty little box makes you more comfy with your plant talking, be my guest. I'd be happy to give you "credible sources" but you would find something wrong with them, like "they only say that to make money......"


I don't regurgitate stuff. I think, I'm educated, and I know science and how it works. Never said that other things aren't useful, just that in many situations, science does work. If it didn't WHY did anyone EVER go beyond putting honey on wounds and using nothing but willow bark for headaches, IF that worked so well for everyone, NO ONE would have searched for something better, and we wouldn't HAVE modern science.

For people who are all "crystals and herbs and good thoughts and nature" y'all can get pretty nasty when someone starts talking LOGIC.

Obviously an attack on my chronic health problems. Nice, you must be proud of your "responsibility" and your ability to point it out to others and their failure to do so. I spent TEN fucking years taking your route and "taking responsibilty" using herbs and homeopathy and chiro, and fucking crystals, and faith healing, and accupuncture ect. NADA.Still in agonizing pain. The lack of proper health care made my problem ingrained and intractable. You obviously didn't read my posts. Only got what you wanted out of them. Which is "Anyone who doesn''t agree with my nature is always better beleifs is "responsible" for their own health problems." Nice, like I said. Very empathetic. Try being in pain for 30 years straight and see if you can think as logically as I can.

Like the old saying, "You can't use logic to argue with those who don't want to hear it." I'll say "Hi." to my cactus plant for ya'. I'm sure It'll care.

 

wow, maggie, you're really holding on tight to all of those problems of yours. they must be serving some purpose for you. you sound really miserable, honestly. if i thought it would make a difference, i'd ask you what you eat. you're on a totally different path though, so i'm not going to waste my time.

cheers!

 

Ah, more ad hominem attacks. Nah, baby, I'm not miserable, just have a health problem I DEALT with, in a responsible manner. My health problem is livable. "serving some purpise" you sound like some EST instructor. That, instead of actually listening to logic.
I am curious, what was your dx, that medicine couldn't help but "natural" medicine could? Just for reference.

 

last night at work, we were talking about parasite cleanses. a colleague told a very interesting story about a woman she knew who had chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. the woman was so sick that she spent almost all her time on the couch. anyways, she did a parasite cleanse and passed a bunch of flukes and things that looked like shrimp. and totally came back to normal, lots of energy, off the couch, able to play with her kids, etc. and she's still okay now. the chronic fatigue is gone and no more fibromyalgia. amazing.

 

Yeah. Been there, done that. Why is it that ONLY certian "Natural" healers can find these "parasites, even when real medical tests prove they aren't there? They always say the SAME thing: "Well, now the parasites are in a resing phase, I have a way of knowing they are there, that MEDICAL DOCTORS don't want to know about, because then it would put them out of business, but take this stuff, which will gve you the shite until you feel you will die and then come back 3 or 4 times a year, and pay me a bundles and maybe you'll feel better."

Bullshit.

Of course, it is easier to attack someone than to actually listen to logic. I have't attacked you, or surmised "what type of person" you are (which is what you and james did to me) just trying to be logical.

What was your diagnosis anyway?

I am NOT going to waste my time shitting my brains out to "cure" something. Done that. Useless, You are not talking to someone who doesn't know the score. I've BEEN deep into this stuff, and came out, (thankfullly alive) on the other side. Only logic save me from giving some unregistered "nutritionist" a new Benz.

But, hey, if attacking and blaming people for their own illnesses is what "natural healing" has taught you and james, I am glad I am no longer into it.

 

Yeah. Been there, done that. Why is it that ONLY certian "Natural" healers can find these "parasites, even when real medical tests prove they aren't there? They always say the SAME thing: "Well, now the parasites are in a resing phase, I have a way of knowing they are there, that MEDICAL DOCTORS don't want to know about, because then it would put them out of business, but take this stuff, which will gve you the shite until you feel you will die and then come back 3 or 4 times a year, and pay me a bundles and maybe you'll feel better."

Bullshit.

Of course, it is easier to attack someone than to actually listen to logic. I have't attacked you, or surmised "what type of person" you are (which is what you and james did to me) just trying to be logical.

What was your diagnosis anyway?

I am NOT going to waste my time shitting my brains out to "cure" something. Done that. Useless, You are not talking to someone who doesn't know the score. I've BEEN deep into this stuff, and came out, (thankfullly alive) on the other side. Only logic save me from giving some unregistered "nutritionist" a new Benz.

But, hey, if attacking and blaming people for their own illnesses is what "natural healing" has taught you and james, I am glad I am no longer into it. Yeah, LOVE PREVAILS. UNless someone makes sense, then attacking does. Sheesh.

 

Yeah. Been there, done that. Why is it that ONLY certian "Natural" healers can find these "parasites, even when real medical tests prove they aren't there? They always say the SAME thing: "Well, now the parasites are in a resting phase, I have a way of knowing they are there, that MEDICAL DOCTORS don't want to know about, because then it would put them out of business, but take this stuff, which will gve you the shite until you feel you will die and then come back 3 or 4 times a year, and pay me a bundles and maybe you'll feel better. And if you don't, I'll find a way for it to look like YOUR fault."

Bullshit.

Of course, it is easier to attack someone than to actually listen to logic. I have't attacked you, or surmised "what type of person" you are (which is what you and james did to me) just trying to be logical.

What was your diagnosis anyway? You conveniently didn't say. I'm at least ready to talk.

I am NOT going to waste my time shitting my brains out, looking at intestinal material and deluding myself to think it is a living organism to "cure" something. Done that. Useless, You are not talking to someone who doesn't know the score. I've BEEN deep into this stuff, and came out, (thankfullly alive) on the other side. Only logic saved me from giving some unregistered "nutritionist" a new Benz.

But, hey, if attacking and blaming people for their own illnesses is what "natural healing" has taught you and james, I am glad I am no longer into it. Yeah, LOVE PREVAILS. Unless someone makes sense, then attacking does. Sheesh.

 

My ONLY reason for joining this thread was the ridiculous things I was reading. But, science and logic has always been put on the whipping post and the burning log, in the name of superstition, since the old days, I guess in some circles not much has changed.

 

well you just admitted why you are being attacked. you came to this thread spitting and screaming at all of us who have the right to choose which path we walk, even though you think we shouldn't like so many "professionals". well we want to walk in the woods so fuck off.
and if you think parasites don't exist you are a bigger fool than i gave you credit for.

 

and god damnit i'm curious as to who the source is who supposibly put peter tompinks and chirstopher bird into the "controlled experiment"
and by the way, if you knew anything, you would know that just because an author, which is what peter tompkins is, writes about a scientific experiement, that doesn't make him a scientist
did you know scientists used to be called wizards ?