Homosexuals - Turn or Born

Right on, IS! I've always believed what you just stated, but never was able to express it in such a beautiful way.

QP

 

the only issue I have with that is that I had no inclination towards men when I was a child or young teenager. Can somebody's brain sex just be extremely repressed, just until brain develops further in other areas?

 

confusing poll question. no one is born any sexual orientation.

 

do you believe in the gay gene thing? I do think there's something, I don't think you can just learn to become gay, but I do feel that whatever intrinsic explanation there is

we nurture it over time. I mean, why are some people so flamboyantly gay and some not so?

 

some interesting posts guys - I am bi and definitely believe that I was born that way with the luxury of finding both sexes attractive. For me I reckon equal attraction physically but not equal emotionally.

Fur sure it's in the genes and hormone mix,

Simon

 

no i dont believe in the gay gene. i think its just an explanation that just helps with tolerance. and its certainly helped since research will never find something especially by the time when everyone is cool with gays. most gays including myself have felt gay since as far as they remember, and thats another reason why they believe the gene thing, but not very many would dare to disagree.

i think sexual orientation is one aspect of personality. everyone has their own predispositions to what their personality will be like, but there are no genetic predisposition to something so specific as sexual preference. i believe it comes down to personality because environment changes personality, and i definitely think environment plays a role.
why i say that we aren't born with sexual orientations is because we barely have anything when we're born! we don't have personality, and we haven't even been around people.

 

The process to masculinise a fetus to turn it from female to male happens to both the physical body and the brain. But these are in fact seperate processes, triggered independantly of each other. Males and females are born with different brain structures, just as they are born with different physical anatomies. The reason why the brain studies carried out in Holland is seen as so significant by so many experts in the field, is that it is known that sex (gender) in brain structure is something a person is born with, and crucially, something that cannot be altered or changed during the course of someone's life. So basically, if you're born with a female (or male) brain structure, you'll have that for the rest of your life. So the results of those studies indicate a very high likelyhood, that for some who identify as the opposite sex at least, they are literally a different sex in mind, than they are in body. And that they are born that way.

And thank you.

@The Imaginary Being: As I said before, what makes someone identify as a member of the opposite sex, and what makes someone be attracted to members of the same sex, isn't the same thing. And the brain studies in Holland appeared to confirm this. As while the area of the brain studied was of the opposite sex for some transsexuals, the same area of the brain was found to be normative and in line with the rest of the physical anatomy, for straight and gay people.

@Boguskyle: You cannot prove that sexual orientation isnt inborn, so you cant state that as if its a proven fact.

 

why can't i? facts aren't said, facts are understood. they only exist in our ears and minds, not our mouths.
im just stating out of certainty.

and no one can prove it IS inborn. quite frankly i dont know what is required to prove any theory as fact any time soon. i definitely think more research needs to be done, but at what point can researchers conclude that there isn't a gene?

i just think the concept of sexual preference is too abstract for it to be traceable by genes.

 

What difference does it make? Either way, we have the right to be who we are - straight, gay, or bi.

 

There is evidence



gay jeans.

 

Because until something can be substantiated as a concrete, irrefutable fact, it can legitimately have doubt cast upon it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and views, but you cant state them as facts. Or at least you shouldnt be surprised when people disagree with them because they arent facts. I stated earlier that I believe someone's sexuality is inborn, or at least it is to a degree. But I cant prove that, so can do no more than state that as my opinion on the subject. But you can no more prove that it isnt inborn, than I can prove it is.

To me, the main thing that leads to me thinking it is inborn, is that we cannot choose who we are attracted to. Anything that is beyond our physical control to change or alter must, at some level, be dictated by biology. I cant say this for sure, nor can I say that other factors aside from biology plays no part in it. (although I believe they dont) However, I think to deny that biology plays any role in attraction and sexuality simply flies in the face of common sense, and logic.

@Karen_J: It makes no difference to me. Even if being gay was a choice, I would still have no problem with it. I just happen to think that it is not a choice. At least it isnt for the vast majority.

 

Not really. Have you read The Naked Civil Servant? Mr. Crisp wanted desperately to fit in. But from a very early age, he was treated as a silly little effeminate boy. So he decided to accept his fate. If people wanted to treat him as a silly little joke, then he would act as one.

Only he would do so deliberately. He literally turned the tables on his worst enemies. At the start, he was born effeminate, and tried his best to become masculine. When the world ridiculed his efforts, he decided to be his natural self. Either way, he was treated as a pariah. But in the end, he remained true to the way he was born: effeminate, brilliant, witty, and very kind. Which is remarkable, given the way he was treated by the world.

QP

 

Lovely post.

 

of course no one has to agree with me, and i never said it is a fact, i'm just saying it with certainty. have you ever written an essay? you're not supposed to write "in my opinion, marijuana needs to be legalized", you just say "marijuana needs to be legalized". same thing

one can't control their personalities either though, especially at a young age when orientation is typically solidified. i'm not denying biology, i'm just not connecting a specific sexuality to some kind of prewiring. i think both environment and personality predisposition take part in form of someone's personality and in turn sexual preference.

um ok? sorry but whats your relevant point?

conscious choice doesn't necessarily change personality either.

 

I do get what you're saying. I say with certainty that sexuality is inborn, I just cannot prove it. At least in a concrete, scientific way. Its just that when you dont state something as an opinion, it does come across as trying to present your views as facts.

To me, prewiring makes a lot more sense than any envoirenmental/upbringing theories, which is why I dismiss them. Ive yet to hear a single arguement from someone putting forward an envoirenmental theory that holds up under scrutiny. I think if it was envoirnment, it would be very easy for people to change their personalities/sexuality without much of the personal despair and anguish that many people suffer when they try and change or defy their natural selves in order to fit in with "normal" society.

You are as entitled as much to your opinion as I am to mine, of course. But for me, envoirnmental/upbringing theories always seem to me to be very suspect at best, and totally laughable at worst. For me, for that arguement to carry any weight whatsoever, all feminine males for example, would have be brought up exactly the same way and have very similar childhoods. And different childhoods from all masculine males. If that is not the case, which it most certainly isnt, then the whole arguement falls on its face. And Id make the exactly the same point about gays/lesbians, and bi-sexuals.

At least we seem to agree at least that biology does play a part in someone's sexuality. Its just that we disagree in how large a role biology actually plays in that. The envoirnment arguement has just never even came close to convincing me. There's far too many gray areas, and things that dont add up that should do, if that were the cause of someone's personality and sexuality. I think all envoirnment does is make someone either happy and open about being different, or miserable and repressed about being different. It can certainly affect how you deal with your natural self, and present that to people around you. But I dont think it can change it.

 

There is hardly scientific consensus on all these issues, we've barely scratched the surface on all this stuff.

We are Born Gay? Why do we need that to be true?

The choice talk, you only get that from those that want you to change

Many that say we are born gay will 5 mins later say something like Sexuality is Fluid without blinking.

Why are some exclusive the whole way through?, why do some turn? Why do some turn at 20 whilst others turn at 50?

Why do some have mostly opposite sex friends whilst some have mostly same sex friends?

Whatever is in the genome doesnt explain everyone elses behaviour, doesnt explain:

-Why everyone gets crankier about gay males than gay females
-Why some girls get cranky at you, whereas some want you to be there BFF
-Why later on most get cranky at you for not being married
-Why the straighter end of the spectrum doesnt get as cranky as the rest
-Why some gay guys gaydar sucks so bad, whilst others can spot you instantly
-Why both sides like to pretend their is only gay or straight and nothing in between

Truth is we are just as bad as them, just as likely to say to the bi guy "Pick a Side". Cos when its about us, oh no we are born that way, but if its someone else its apparently a choice

 

Read what I said again, carefully. Also, "Abrahmic" religions are, Jewdaism (the daddy of them all) Christinsanity, and Issham

 

why would you think it would be easy for someone to change their personality/sexualities if environment was the main cause?

actually thinking about it more, i think personality predispositions are more significant than environment.
i think since we're born, our personalities slowly transition from relying on genetic predisposition to an environment basis. the environment side of the spectrum being more about acknowledgement and comfort. but they both go hand in hand, because they wouldn't make the same product without eachother with all of the variables both of them provide.
me personally, i remember liking guys since kindergarten. i've always felt different than everybody else since before then, but did i feel different because of environment which led to my acknowledgement of my sexuality? or did i feel different because of my sexuality because of environment? either way, i think sexuality is too abstract for it be embedded in us.

completely agree, except since i do think sexuality is part of personality, environment can affect it. and i think that relates to sexuality itself not being black and white. i think everyone is bi to an extent, and if a girl that is just right came into my life, that would affect my sexuality since i'd reconsider it. that girl wouldn't come from genetics, she is part of environment.
thats just an example, and i'm not saying everyone is like that, so rarely would that happen haha.


@Vanilla, completely agreed. +1 (if i could)

 

LOCKED

Well this has been fun and totally non productive...the troll OP has long gone and this thread has come unraveled