Homosexuality = sin

The bible has been twisted and contorted to mean whatever the current powers, political or religous, want it to mean. Read John Boswell's book Christianity, Social Intolerance and Homosexuality. It's a milestone piece of work detailing the different twists of the bible by different dictators, church or state throughout the centuries.

I guess if someone wanted to give me a label I'd be real close to a Pagan who finds God in jungle, river, mountain or any place unspoiled. I also find God in the people I work with, or the animals I share space with. It goes far deeper for me but thats just my belief...and it works for me. When I sin my sins are against the earth itself or people if I hurt them. The Sun shines just as bright on me as a gay man as it does on you as someone who isn't gay. The touch of some one I love is every bit a potent for me as for you.

I lived in the jungle once and God told me that he hung out there a lot. He gave me some work while I was there and I did what he asked. Thats Holy Communion for me.

 

Thank you. Yes I must admit the Bible has been abused just so much, and I have no more empathy with the Church, than you do. Thankfully, I was granted a clear eye to distinguish between what they "say" about the Bible and what the Bible says itself. It is nothing strange, then, that for possessing and reading a Bible the Church would burn you alive back in the middle ages! ...So, in this world of unreliable information I, personally, value the Bible for what it IS.
Yea, jungle, river, mountain -- these are the places, where I can feel the Creator. I also noticed, that such places helped me to learn to trust the Creator and his power. Once I felt like being in a dead end, I was 18 then, and I came to that corner of the park, just to take a breath of fresh air... I needed support, and it was nowhere to be found at the time. And there , in that small peace of relatively untouched nature, I suddenly felt it! Felt his great love expressed in every blade of grass, and that he wants us all to be happy. Otherwise, why would he create such wonderful world, right? Why would he give us all those feelings and abilities?

But of course, there were things left to be understood, resolved, answered... Things, to which I couldn't find any answer just by observing the nature around me. And men around me -- they couldn't help much, for they were ready to swallow all the lies they were passing on to one another, without ever going beyond the surface...

 

For me, God's handwriting is written large in the Jungle, deep in the River and high in the Mountain. What I read there makes sense, What I needed to do was made clear there. No man condemned me because of my Gay nature. No place has ever given me such peace and purpose as has the jungle. I have no need to claim someone else is a sinner because my beliefs don't require that. If another person sins, they'll know it. I don't need to proclaim it.

There are old men and women in the jungle who are teachers, spiritual guides. I've tried to learn from them. They know things that aren't talked about in western religions. And in the faces of those jungle kids I've seen the Children of God clearly.

For a lot of people western religions seem to work well. They follow their soul and live as if other people mattered. They don't waste much time trying to name my sins for me. That's what they need to do, live kindly according to the tenents of their faith...and respect the fact that I have found God in another place.

 

I'm sorry, dear whichaxe, but obviously the Bible is being disliked JUST BECAUSE it is quite CLEAR on certain matters -- and that despite even the ancient languages and peoples it was "meant for". Didn't you actually mean this, eh?;-)))

Obviously, you didn't study the matter seriously enough, my friend. Otherwise you'd easily understand, that any doubt "stemming from translation" can be solved by comparing the passage in question with other passages of the Bible, which can settle all such doubts. Then the usage of the words can be compared with the usage of the same words in other passages, then compared with the usage of the same words in other documents of the same period. Then again, the contextual meaning must be compared with the general idea of the book -- you can't help that either.

There is only one way for you to make sure, that is to study the Bible yourself... But you are not going to, AFAIK. In such case, what do you care about the "error in the translation", man??? Just take courage to state it plain, that you don't like the Bible and hence not going to take it seriously. That would be honest and worth respect.

 

I can clearly see your point here, and I understand it, too. Me myself, I always believed that other people have nothing to do with what I am. They obviously could not help with my problems, so why should I grant them any right to judge the inside of my heart??
Of course I had to "comply" outwardly with their views to some extent, as it is impossible to war against the world. Unfortunately, you just CAN'T openly oppose the whole world. There will be found corrupt men with more experience, than yourself, and they will turn your "war" to their personal unclean benefit, while pretending to give "support". So I learned not to trust others and to scrutinize their possible motives by studying their words.
Therefore, the motives of the writers of the Bible can also be scrutinized. The real value and trueness of their words can also by verified, as they speak about truth, honesty, sincerity , modesty , humility and love. You cannot possible falsify such things without being exposed! So are the Church leaders and the Church goers. But this doesn't cast any shadow on the Scripture, which helps greatly those, who rely on it for help.

 

Just a point of clarification...When I talk about Jungles and Rivers I'm not making some metaphorical reference. I actually mean the Peruvian Jungles along the Amazon River. That place is my Mecca, my Vatican, my Holy Land. The Shamans are the priests, their Spiritual Plants are the Communion Wafer/Wine. After six decades of life, that place, the most bio-diverse area on Earth, comforts me, strengthens me and humbles me in a way that nothing and nowhere else can. Thats where my seeking lead me.

Finding Purpose in life, finding God has always been my quest Ultimately that quest lead me to the very womb of the Earth, the Primal Garden. By the way there are a ton of serpents there but nary a one has ever said a damn thing about forbidden fruit, or any other sin...My kind of folks.

 

I'm glad you could find such place to your heart! My situation doesn't allow me right now to travel a lot, nor go to the places I'd like to go... Yes, I understood it right away that you were most likely talking about a certain place on this earth, where you spent some time of your life. Some real jungle. I can only "imagine", how it would feel... imagine from what I feel myself, when I get to the forest or field or any such places of untouched nature, as are available in my vicinity. Every little plant, when you look at it closer, speaks of the great wisdom of its Maker... The farthest I got recently was the North next to Finland, flora and fauna there is quite scarce. And the point about serpents...

I like serpents, don't know why. But none of them will talk to any of us, he-he! Just as you yourself brought out, neither serpents, nor any other creature is known to speak intelligent things -- only intelligent creatures like humans. However, the very things spoken through that "serpent" (by such intelligent creature) give away a lot about the roots of our human problems. The evil angel provoked the first humans to disobey their Maker, with the (false) hope of becoming "like God" in the end of it. So, many people believe that to be a revelation about our past, explaining a lot... Are we not trying to be "like God" in our efforts to live according to our OWN views and feelings?...

I mean... every phenomenon must have its explanation, you know. Also this one: with all this almightiness of the Maker and his great wisdom, as seen in his creation (including you and me), WHY can't he solve the problems of humans? Yes I know, it is "we must all together do this, or do that..."... OK. I don't believe the present humankind will ever be able to do any such thing "all together". But WHY did God allow all this to happen?? Or, how did humans find themselves in a situation, where we must suffer instead of being perfectly happy every second of our life? Just as perfectly happy, as perfect is the beauty of every creation of God, every little flower, every little insect? When we see such things, we feel it very strongly, that happiness must be somewhere here, not far away... But never have it that way! WHY?? These are the questions, for which the nature itself just couldn't give me answers.

Excuse me, please, but your idea about serpents just provoked this line of thoughts to come out like this... What seems like a laughable story to some, still makes a lot of sense to others. And in our search for truth we have to consider every possibility, right?

 

with all this almightiness of the Maker and his great wisdom, as seen in his creation (including you and me), WHY can't he solve the problems of humans? Yes I know, it is "we must all together do this, or do that..."... OK. I don't believe the present humankind will ever be able to do any such thing "all together". But WHY did God allow all this to happen??

It seems you predicate you faith/belief on God being the almighty being described in the bible. For many years I did too...and met the same astounding disappointments you mention. I was a young Catholic boy, educated in a Catholic school...I completely accepted God as described in the bible. As I grew older I was able to more clearly look at Catholocism as a construct built around older religions, Pagan religions. At that point I chucked all notion of religion out the window as lies meant to control people not save them.

Without religion, my search for God was a lot cleaner. I looked within and without and found basic good in both places as well as the potential for what I consider as bad or even evil. The God that makes sense to me is the Earth and all its creatures. I don't expect "God" to intervene. My God doesn't do that. Everlasting reward in heaven...I don't know if that biblical notion translates over. The reward for being good is the satisfaction of doing good. The same for evil... you have to live with what you have done. I haven't really fleshed it out well enough to put into words. Basically my faith is a deep satisfaction with what I have and with no expectations that "God" is going to be directly involved in my life. My Prayers are the acts of kindness I give to the Earth or any of its creatures...my sins are the harm I do to those same.

I don't know is this makes any sense to you or not. It simply is my reaction to hearing the idea that being Gay might be a sin. Not by my definition.

 

I appreciate very much your openness on this subject, because I absolutely agree with you on Catholicism, as well as other "official Churches". They all stem from one root; and who was the founder?? The Roman emperor Constantine, who WAS a pagan himself and invented this "Christianity" in order to add some "cement" to then deteriorating Roman empire, the cement would be this "new" religion. So he took all them "good old" romano-greek religious traditions, and renamed them into "Christian" names... Thus, instead of Saturnalia fests "we" have ... Christ's Birth on December 25 (although the Gospels describe the time of his birth as early autumn, when the shepherds could spend the night with their flocks in the field)! And so on... So there is no need to look for their teachings in the Bible. Nor for the biblical teachings in the church.

EDIT, IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE QUANTITY OF THOUGHTS PER LINE:So, what you just said does make perfect sense to me, for I agree with the most of it. And yes, I've always been of the same opinion about the self-rewarding nature of good and bad. And like yourself, I never felt much sense about the concept of "sin" in this regard. Such views seem to be widely accepted in many cultures naturally, including the Greeks... But the concept of "sin" as some defect in human nature starts making sense, when we realize our "unpleasant" tendency to "make mistakes" and regret our own actions. I have tried, like many others, to "stop interpreting" my actions as "mistakes", but... it didn't work out the way I expected. Instead of peace of mind it brings about a feeling of moral degradation... Yet human nature implies moral satisfaction and self-respect as inevitable part of our happiness, does it not? At least, the Greeks, who taught the above stuff about the self-rewarding nature of the good, taught this also.

And there are questions, that need answers, still. I mean, OK, the cravings of our human heart about happiness and humanitarian values may not look possible "in the very near future"... But still this heart seems to be more "satisfied" with those unrealized dreams, then it would be by going all "realistic", content with the bare reality of "what you are and what you have". I mean, forests and nature help to soothe this strain and calm down the anxiety, but the heart doesn't want to rest "forever happy" in such state. It is craving for more; but who can give us "more", if not our Maker? We humans have proved capable of giving ourselves pains and problems. But the Maker of life -- can he not, perhaps, give us happiness to it? Or, help us to find it? And if he can, would we be ready to follow? I ended up with these questions, before I found good answers.

 

i think anyone who thinks anything is a sin is delusional and has a crooked understanding of life. there are no sins in this world. there's no good or evil. right or wrong. and no-one's viewpoint is better than the others'. people shouldn't even judge other people because their life experience is gravely different from theirs. they don't have the same frame of reference.

 

If we concentrate too much on the fact of other people judging us, it distracts our attention from our real personality and makes us concentrate instead on what other people say/think about us and our actions. Concentrate -- in order to prove them wrong. But what's the bid deal about their opinion? They have a bunch of problems to their own lives. And THIS is YOUR life, and your prompt need to understand what it is, in your own terms.

Is this just your answer to those who would judge your actions? Or, is this your verdict with regard to life in general?

I mean, we are humans and as such we KNOW there is good and there is evil. You don't need to deny this just in order to get rid of other people's judgments, really. I mean, if you have scratched your finger, there's no need to cut off the whole hand! ...Besides, we NEED other people's opinion in order to understand ourselves. Just filter out the "judgmental" element, and you will have a very good look from the outside on what you really are.

This denying of all good and bad is only throwing one into utter confusion. Are you telling me there is no sin in this world? Then, what do YOU call this world, my friend? Perhaps, you call it "A PERFECT HARMONY OF PEACE AND HAPPINESS"? Or what? "A WARM SHELTER OF LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING"? No. With all good intentions of all those, who cared more than just their OWN quite peaceful happy existence, this world is still full of suffering and evil.

And "sin" -- is not meant to be a tool to judge or torture other people. "Sin" is a word to explain the hidden cause of our human failures and sufferings. Just use the tool correctly, and everything will be fine. Sin is generally understood as our tendency to make mistakes, even while thinking we are 100% right. At your age of 25 you must have already experienced something like this! Admit, please, that this has nothing to do with "other people's judgments". It comes from within, it is our conscience.

 

i was replying to the original post. i haven't read any of the conversations going on here just that 1st post. so if you have any half-finished discussions going on here my post wasn't in association to those.

and in any case i agree with you. that's exactly what i was saying -- ppl shouldn't judge other people; you just looked at judging from a reactive POV whereas i talked about it as an act in general. and i said it because there are a lot of judgmental people who do that, and who think that their opinion is a universal law onto anyone else. personally i couldn't care less about what people think of me. i got over that when i was in high school. but i have met a lot of people who are grown up educated people and they have no integrity of mind to understand that their opinion is a subjective perception not a book of law.

life in general.

yeah, but you gotta understand that there is a difference between an opinion and a judgment. everybody has opinions and they have a right to like/dislike whatever and whomever they want. as an example --- a person who doesn't like black people. he has a right for his own opinion, it's his personal taste. if he doesn't like black people he doesn't like them. no one has a right to tell him that he is wrong and then call him a racist etc. it's when he let's say as an employer turns down a black applicant whom he would have hired had he been e.g. white that it ceases to be just an opinion.
a judgment is when a person thinks that his subjective taste/knowledge/etc is an authority in itself to go around and tell other people how they should live their lives. people who send their homosexual sons to "treatment" are like that; the DEA who continues to spread the myth of addiction and imprisons thousands of people who have done nothing more than just been in possession of a substance that they find some personal benefit from is like that. that's judgment. people who don't know anything about drugs and watch the government financed propaganda how one try at cocaine will immediately turn a person into a murderer and then they go to their friends and speak on and on about how all drug users are criminals and sick people ----- those people are the ones who judge. they've gone beyond just having an opinion. and their judgment has no basis whatsoever because they don't even know the subject they are forming an opinion about. they haven't read about the pharmacological action of cocaine/LSD/heroin/etc, its effects, or anything at all. they simply recycle what they heard from TV or some other non-scientific source.

what i meant, maybe i should have been more clear, was that there is no universal good or bad, right or wrong. it's all subjective. what i perceive as good, someone else perceives and wrong. confusion starts when people think that what they perceive as wrong is wrong or should be wrong for everybody else. which is not so. and that's exactly what my core point in this discussion is. (for avoiding any stupid inferences: i'm not including murder, theft, and other such crimes under subjective wrongs. obviously, those are not subjective in their nature. drug use is one subjective 'wrong' i can bring as an example. for some people it's 'wrong' for others it's good'. like you see ---- it's subjective).

and i am not some blindfolded idealist so don't throw the perfect harmony bullshit at me.

i call this world an experience. you can make your life the way you want it to be. you will have your successes and you will make your mistakes. and then you go on.
the word sin denotes that a mistake is something negative, something to be avoided. i don't see it that way, maybe that's why i don't have a notion of sin as such. mistakes are just as much part of our lives as our successes. to me, it's all experiences. and these experiences are either subjectively negative or positive. but i don't have a conception of any act being something to be called a sin.

as i said ---- i don't have a conception of anything being a sin in the way the word is generally understood.

Merriam-Webster: sin:
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming : fault 2 a: transgression of the law of god b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from god

 

Well, thank you for not taking too personally the somewhat "definite" tone of my post. It is just about being definite, and nothing else; just in order to show what I really mean and to put it as short as possible. You know, understanding is difficult even when you SEE your opponent; so much more when you don't. Hence -- my "enhanced" style.The words I use to show what I think to be erroneous, are just the words meant to emphasize what I think IS the "error"...

As I can see, you still set apart a number of actions, which you WON'T exclude from the "undeniably bad" list, don't you? It is because you see it very clearly, HOW these are "not subjective" evils. Thereby you admit, you see, that some actions, although people may be doing them "from the heart", are WRONG things to do. That is a very interesting evidence to the fact, that our human heart can produce "wrong" things. Now this is part of what the Bible calls "sin".

As regards the definition of sin, I can't rely on Miriam Webster, for it just reflects the widely accepted usage of the word. Which deviates from the sense the Bible gives it. I will include here just a brief definition without quotations, as this forum is NOT about the Bible at all.

And if you go to the Bible (not to the "church") for more information, you will find it, that along with defining some particular ACTIONS as sin, it gives a definition of WHAT THE THING IS. The context gives the sense of "anything, that is NOT IN HARMONY with God's personality, standards, ways and will".The original language (both Hebrew and Greek) word conveys the meaning "to miss" or "not reach" the mark, the goal, the right point.

The orthodox and fundamentalists tend to forget, that his was written for, and must be used by those, who want to build their life and personality in harmony with their Maker's principles. And it really helps! BUT! It is BY NO MEANS supposed to be used to persecute one group of people by some other. Did not Jesus recommend to "stop judging" in order to escape from "being judged" in turn? He means, it is OUR personal decision. Want to serve God? Then you will want to learn more about His will and all things included... Want to do your own thing? It is still possible in this world and nobody has the right to restrict your freedom... unless "your own thing" would include one of those "not subjective" evils you so kindly mentioned;-).

Does this freedom mean, however, that what the Bible calls "sin" must be "redefined"? I see no reason to do so. If you follow the Bible, then these definitions help you to go in the right direction, to correct your steps, to chose your friends wisely and so on. If you don't -- then why not state that openly? It is not illegal today to say so, or live so. And then, for someone doing his own thing, there is NO such thing as "sin" -- for he himself is his own judge. That is, until life should prove it otherwise...

 

i think his point here is that ALL humans are sinners, and have been since they were kicked outta Eden, and the idea of life is to absolve yourself and get on God's good side. so... yeah he's non-judgemental.

but he's a christian so it doesn't matter what he says to me either way.



and if its relevant, i'm not straight.

 

yeah, it's true that i do see murder and theft as maybe universally wrong. but as much as i can think these are the only two acts i perceive as such. everything else is subjective and depending on the context.

by the way -- how would you define a murder being committed "from the heart"?

I'm an atheist, and i'm not familiar with the context or meaning the bible gives for 'sin'. also, i don't think that's how most people would define 'sin'. most people, at least most people i've met in my life, have an understanding of the word more or less how Merriam-Webster puts it.

and as i said --- i don't even have a conception of sin as such. to me, it seems to be an artificially trumped up term that people use to express their opinion on human behavior they don't agree with or understand and to lend their opinion more authority. you look more powerful when you say something is a sin than when you just call it wrong. but that's just what it is --- a wrong, and in majority of cases only a subjective wrong.

 

Well, our actions -- they originate from our hearts, in fact. Deep in our hearts we have our motives, many different motives. There we can find the real explanation to our strongest beliefs and most cherished ideas, some hidden motives, that influence the kind of persons we are and the kind of life we are living. In our hearts we also justify our actions, find some "sound" reasons in favour of certain actions. But first of all, our heart makes a decision; with this done, the heart can then find whatever "convincing" and "sound" reasons and judgments it takes to justify the decided action in the person's eyes. It is because of this strong power, that human heart is being treated by many as something "divine" or "holy". And yet Jesus said once, that "from the heart come fornication, murder, thefts and other things that defile a man". This is why, also, the book of Proverbs has this saying:"More, than anything that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart, for from it are the sources of life."

How about a murder, then? It is actually very difficult to kill a man; I mean, technically it is not, but it is extremely difficult to convince oneself, that such action must be taken, and then to do the thing with your own (or somebody else's) hands. There is a lot of evidence to it, also scientific studies. Such action cannot be taken, unless one should have VERY strong motivation in his heart -- nothing less than that can really make it.

... But I want to add something here, as we are touching this matter already. I've noticed how people treat their heart is something "holy", something "not to be touched" nor disputed. However, a careful study can unveil the SOURCES of all the motivations of our heart. We can, if we want to, investigate and find out, where our strongest convictions, empathies, all such life-shaping influences come from. It is usually from the people, who were around us since our childhood, and not at all "from God".

This being so, there is nothing wrong in rechecking all such things. When I was a child, certain things had a very strong influence on my heart, amplified through my love and respect for some people, all that forming a strong motivation that would mold my entire life. But I'm not a child any more! And however noble and loving those people have been, they were mistaken in many things. I can redefine my life and use my present wisdom to get rid of the harmful unwise things, that people implanted in me long time ago... So I think, the contents of our hearts need a very serious attention and critical approach, instead of being worshiped as an idol. God gave us the heart; but it wasn't God who gave us the contents thereof. Unless we ourselves filled our hearts with God's things out of free will;-).

 

yeah i agree. even in self-defense it's not necessary to kill the person attacking you, you just have to render them incapable of harming you. which really leaves no loopholes for taking anybody's life and be OK with it.

and if somebody has somehow come to a conclusion that it's alright to kill people under certain pretexts that he finds satisfactory for the occasion (or to commit murder 'from the heart' as you defined it) it would seem more like that person has lost his mind. because the reasoning behind such a logic seems untenable. i don't think people who do this kind of thing for living even think that what they are doing is right, but they do it for the money or for whatever personal reason.

 

I read, that those professional killer teams, they learn not to think of the people they kill, as of real humans. So they do the killing systematically and effectively, but... much like zombie, you know...

So, our heart can produce bad and wrong things, like strong hatred and decision to kill a fellow-human. There are other bad things it can produce, which I hate none the less. It is when the heart shows desire or love for things, which I HATE.You know? I hate these things, but all of a sudden, MY HEART is letting me know, that IT LOVES what I HATE...

Could be well demonstrated with an illustration... For women it's usually a heavy trauma , when they get raped. But more pain can be added, if a woman had sexual pleasure during the act of rape... For many victims of rape this becomes cause of real hard psychological and emotional pain and problems. But something like that happens to many of us! When our heart shows strong attraction to what is actually degrading for our personality. What should be done then? "DO WHAT YOUR HEART WANTS"? Obviously, our heart can be a bad guide.

But obviously, it belongs TO US, and not to OUR HEART to make decisions about what is wrong and what is right. And if it belongs to us, then is it really wise to rely upon the heart in making these decisions?

 

NOT a sin.

 

Being gay is no more a sin than being lefthanded. It was once thought that being lefthanded was "against God" because of the "right hand of God" references in the Bible. I don't know of any self professed Christian who still believes that. Even Fred Phelps doesn't believe that.

If people really did choose their sexual orientation, there would be no gay people because no one would consciously choose a sexual lifestyle that would get them ostracized, beaten or murdered.

What the straights fail to realize is this: It could very easily be the other way around.

What if:

Heterosexual relations were illegal and called "sinful" or "evil" in religious books unless it was for pro-creative purposes and the only allowable pleasure sex was homosexuality?

Heterosexuals had to sneak into Midtowne Spa-like places to hook up with the opposite sex, afraid their boss or family would find out they were straight instead of gay?

Heterosexuals could be fired from their jobs for their orientation?

They had to register as sex offenders because they engaged in sexual activity without the intention of having a baby and got caught?

The sexual orientations of Matt Shepard his attackers were the opposite and the attackers tried to make a "straight panic" defense because they thought he might try to get them to have sex with women?

Don't Ask Don't Tell applied to straight men and women?

Fag was a derogatory term for a heterosexual instead of its current connotation meaning a homosexual?

Wouldn't the heterosexual population be clamoring for their rights and freedoms if these scenarios actually played out. Yes, they would because such treatment is wrong. Discrimination is NEVER right and is certainly not a civil right. Civil rights are for civilized people.