Holocaust Revisionism

Karen,

Perhaps you, too, should look this thread over to see what actual research shows. Post #69 would be a good place for you to start, considering what you stated in your post.

 

That's so scary to me. Right now, there's no way for that to happen in America. We fucked up and elected Bush (twice!), but at least the majority has no one to blame but themselves. The Hitler story has me terrified of the parliamentary system.

Yeah, but can we avoid it? I'd like to see us just pay a lot more attention to the facts, and not be so quick to jump to conclusions.

I have already completed my research.

 

It would be fine if they would institute a run-off election between the top 2 parties, but that doesn't seem likely any time soon.

 

Election reform that removes 'first past the post' voting system, is desperately needed.

 

But... I thought that all we HAD was stories from the survivors, and actual hard evidence to back it up is lacking or even non-existent.

So... we now have a reason for why the stories are lacking too?

Surely you understand that you should never have completed your research. There is always more to learn.

Thanks, I'll give that a read

 

Have you guys questioned your source, the IHR? Here's what Wikipedia says about them (in part)

 

...and from the first troops who entered the camps. Also, I think there were some guards who later answered questions about what went on in these places.

The Smithsonian Holocaust Memorial has thousands of historical artifacts on display, including shockingly graphic photographs and film footage, internal SS memos, "extermination" records, audio recordings of interviews, collected belongings of deceased inmates, and detailed scale models of buildings. It's a very extensive and convincing collection. Anyone who has an interest in the subject should check it out. It takes about six hours to go through everything.

I don't need to become an expert on the subject of concentration camps. However, I would be interested in learning more about the factors that enabled someone like Hitler to come to power in a country that is known for having intelligent, well educated citizens. I find that deeply disturbing.

 

I said: The problem starts to arise (and where prison might be warranted) is when 'Holocaust Deniers' start to incite racial/hatred, and that the majority of people discussing the Holocaust within the countries where it is a criminal offence are not imprisoned - however, several hardened/prolific deniers have been.

Prison is fine.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that immediately after the war figures were mentioned based on what was thought at the time, and since then the No.s and certain details have been reassessed several times.
I wouldn't say that is 'constant revision' or (hip'): 'historians are revising massive parts of this fairly frequently.'
I do not think there has been much change in about 20-30 years, and on certain issues nothing has changed in approx' 70 years.

At this point in 2013 I'm supposed to revise my whole idea regarding 'The Holocaust' or question whether any of it actually happened because of what was written by deniers 20-30 years ago?

If you are talking about the 'expert testimonies' in PR's video...then i I've read articles like this: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001
(nearly 20 years old)
...which seem a lot more convincing than men in balaclavas...

Do you not think there were labour camps?

Auschwitz II–Birkenau (the extermination camp)
Auschwitz III–Monowitz (a labour camp to staff an IG Farben factory)

Sobibor extermination camp

Is that better?

 

You might wish to keep in mind that I do not ever respond to a thread that I have not read every post in. I may not agree with everything posted but I do read it all. There have been some opinions expressed that I agree with and some I do not. Some "facts" presented that I agree with and some that I do not.

I did not state that anyone denies (particularly in this thread) that it happened and I actually do concur that the numbers seem to be revised by most reputable sources. The actual numbers are not the lesson.

Some of your sources (see Sunfighters post re IHR) are dubious to say the least and because someone says it is so does not make it so. Just as those who still hold to the 6 million figure. The numbers do not matter, the deed and disrespect for human life did and does.

Those who are "well known" revisionists, as in those who hold public speaking seminars on this subject are not only being compensated for it but it is done by groups that are fundamentalist and supremacists. Those groups are not known for their general good will to all fellow man. Those groups do incite hate, discrimination and violence. They use these revisionist sentiments for their own agendas and the revisionist are often sympathetic to their agendas. To not also consider the overall beliefs of a presenter is a flawed logic as it will influence the message. To accept payment from a group with a known agenda colours you with the same brush.

The assumption that some revisionist do not have an agenda of their own would not be realistic. The reason that many are controversial is not their views but the bile that comes with them. I am not speaking of the lay person but those who turn this into a lucrative speaking career. To be fair there are revisionist who do not do this and to them it is more of an academic exercise but they are not the ones in the media and holding seminars. What we all do has a cause and effect.

So while some record might not be accurate that does not mean that all records are not. The medical experimentation was more than well documented. Those are not disputed. They are not disputed as they were documented by those who carried them out. There is an irony in that.

As I previously stated the real crime here is that genocides are still happening.

 

I'm aware of at least three methods of estimating victim totals, all of them imprecise, but all three indicating similarly massive fatalities. First, there are the written records. Germans tend to be meticulous record keepers (usually a good trait) and kept records of every person taken into custody, where they were taken, and their eventual fate. Unfortunately, they started burning paper records when it became obvious that surrender was at hand. They didn't successfully burn everything. Second, we know about how much human ashes weigh and how much space they take up, so we could look at ash pits and calculate roughly how many bodies were burned to fill them. Finally, there are official census figures for the Jewish and Gypsy populations of all the European countries before and after the war. Subtract the two totals, and we have a pretty good idea where the rest of them went.

Besides extensive documentation on each and every one of the extermination camps, there is also footage of local residents being forced to walk through them as soon as the war ended, before anything had been removed. Western leaders wanted everyone to see what had been hidden behind those walls, before anyone had time to start rumors to the contrary.

Another touching thing I saw in the museum was several German families touring the place. An employee told me it's one of the most popular Washington tourist destinations for German visitors, mostly families who want their children growing up with a full awareness of everything that went on during WWII, in the hopes that such things will never be done by Germany again.

It also crossed my mind that the presence of so many Germans on a daily basis eliminates any concern about English translations of old German documents on display being anything other than completely accurate.

 

Untill humanity realizes their enlightenment the answer is no, most will always judge.

 

Karen,

Are these the stories from the first troops that entered the camps that you're talking about?

At one time it was seriously claimed that at Auschwitz Jews were systematically killed with electricity. American newspapers in February 1945, citing a Soviet eyewitness report from the recently-liberated camp, told readers that the methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields."

 

I've read about this.

I would have posted some info' but it doesn't seem people such as Hoppípolla are interested in it. Preferring men in balaclavas etc.

 

Odon,

I believe you've overlooked my request that you provide an example of revisionist writings have been shown to be a contributing factor to anti-Semitic violence.

 

I have not overlooked it. I read it and then ignored it.

 

I'm sure they tried every trick in the book to try and conceal the truth, including dumping ashes in rivers and out in the woods. But we still found a lot of ashes. Just the number of bodies and skeletons awaiting cremation was enough to shock and horrify any human with normal, healthy values and emotions.

No, I'm not particularly interested in anything that had a chance to get filtered through the Russian government.

 

Karen,

And when your research uncovered this:

A leading American gas chamber expert, Fred A. Leuchter, carefully examined the supposed "gas chambers" in Poland and concluded that the Auschwitz gassing story is absurd and technically impossible. At the time he conducted his examination, Leuchter was acknowledged as the foremost specialist on the design and installation of gas chambers used in the United States to execute convicted criminals. For example, he designed a gas chamber facility for the Missouri state penitentiary.

In February 1988 he carried out a detailed onsite examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek in Poland, which are either still standing or only partially in ruins. In sworn testimony to a Toronto court and in a technical report, Leuchter described every aspect of his investigation. He concluded that the alleged gassing facilities could not possibly have been used to kill people. Among other things, he pointed out that the so-called "gas chambers" were not properly sealed or vented to kill human beings without also killing German camp personnel.

Dr. William B. Lindsey, a research chemist employed for 33 years by the Dupont Corporation, likewise testified in a 1985 court case that the Auschwitz gassing story is technically impossible. Based on a careful on-site examination of the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, and on his years of experience, he declared: "I have come to the conclusion that no one was willfully or purposefully killed with Zyklon B (hydrocyanic acid gas) in this manner. I consider it absolutely impossible."

In March 1992, a prominent Austrian engineer made headlines when a report he had written about alleged German wartime gas chambers was made public. Walter Lüftl, a court-recognized expert engineer who headed a large engineering firm in Vienna, concluded that the familiar stories of mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers at the wartime camps of Auschwitz and Mauthausen are impossible for technical reasons. Lüftl also specifically affirmed Leuchter's findings about Auschwitz . . .

. . . what was it that caused you to doubt it. Did you find some expert testimony to refute this expert testimony?

 

Odon,

You understand that you are exposing the fact that you are being evasive because you have no examples, right? I mean, otherwise you would produce them.

EDIT: The thing is, you made the claim, and I'm just asking for some clarification.

 

You are starting to sound like a one trick pony.

You have not answered my post regarding the associates of well known revisionists. Those are very well documented. Therein lies your answer.

 

Would you like me to point out where you have completely ignored/not responded to points asked of you?