Hey Guyz...

Ooooo sign me up!! Sounds like fun!

Our society spends way too much time looking for symbols and making symbolism out of nothing. Most kids can't tell you who the president is, or who MLK is, but show them a picture of the golden arches of McDonald's, and they're all over it. There's some evil symbolism for you.

I'm the last person to talk religion, but recognizable symbols I understand and most of the time, they're used for control and ill-gotten gains.

 

There was never a man who spoke more truth than Nietzsche

 

I don't care if it rains or freezes, 'long as I have my plastic Jesus. But seriously, I agree with you. The WWJD movement was embarrassing when it got into tee shirts and neck wear. I'm not talking about things to show off with. I'm talking about internal symbols and metaphors, of which the cross is one. But the important thing is what they represent. One more time, for those who missed the first two (which seems to be everybody): I'm replying to the atheist post suggesting that evil and suffering in the world are refutations of God and religion. My basic point was that the example and teachings of Jesus, brought to dramatic fruition by His agonizing death and resurrection, give us an effective way of combating suffering and evil in our daily thoughts and actions, by giving us an example of somebody who triumphed over pain and death and taught us compassionate love of others. Forget the symbols part and deal with the substance of that thought.

 

Suffering and evil in the world of a loving God?
Of course, because God is a loving God.

Think of it this way, you have a baby and as it grows it ventures more and more. when trying to walk your paternal instinct tells you to be ready to catch them every time they fall and to not let them try to stand or walk unless you are holding their hand. If you do that you hurt and interfere with the baby's development and ability to learn to walk.

As they grow older there comes a time when they must strike out on their own. As a loving parent you want the best for them and to protect them from all the "evils" of the world. But are you doing any favors by protecting them from the world or are they going to grow and prosper more if they are allowed to falter and make mistakes?

Any parent should understand what I am getting at.
Loving someone also means allowing them to grow and possibly make mistakes, sometimes horrific ones. But you will still love your child regardless.
If I do everything for my kids am I really showing them love or am I just serving my own sense of needing to protect them.
Love requires very hard choices at times, even to the point of watching that which you love the most go down a path of self destruction.


My eldest stepdaughter has a friend who shes known since grade school. Her parents were/are very over protective and have never let her make any decisions for herself. They pick her jobs, friends, where she lives, etc. all under the guise of being concerned and loving parents. But now at 26 years old when my stepdaughter has secured an awesome job, in a steady relationship for many years, has bought a house and has become a successful woman. Her friend can't make any decisions for herself because of her parents "love". We watched with tears in our eyes as our daughter made bad choices in boyfriends, got ripped off in a money scam, and taken advantage of at work. We offered advice, but allowed her to make her own choices in her life. She fell and got some scars, but she is now a much stronger person for it.

Thinking that because there is evil and suffering in the world therefore no God is a simplistic and naive idea.
That is what love is. That is what Gods love is.

 

I agree that evil and suffering in the world don't disprove a loving God (in fact that was my point) but I don't think evil and suffering can be written off to Divine "tough love". I'm sure that theory would be less than comforting to the victims of Hurricane Katrina, 911, the floods in Pakistan, the Murrah building Oklahoma City bombings, the BP oil spill, etc. My mother and brother died agonizing deaths from cancer, despite interfaith prayers for their recovery. And you're saying, well they needed to find out the consequences of their bad choices? Neither of them drank or smoked or were obese. What were those "bad choices"?

 

Obviously went right over your head.
this is why I have stayed out of the religious forums. What was I thinking.

 

(I hate when people completely edit their post as someone is replying)

Do you not get that shit happens. It don't mean diddly squat. and if your a Christian then why the grieving and despair? This life is but a momentary step along the road. Your fear of death is what brings those feelings.

But, like I said, this is the reason I have stayed out of the religious forums. Not because I think I'm right and your wrong, but because this shit always is a never ending back and forth of opinions and interpretations. Honestly I burned out on this type of debate when I was about your age.
Now I'm too old to care about trying to convince or convert, as it is a fruitless venture for the most part.
We see it differently. That is fine with me.
:cheers2:

 

Yes, indeed I get that shit happens. Did I misunderstand that you were saying that it's God's way of teaching responsibility for things people aren't responsible for? Speaking of things going over people's heads, do you get the impression I'm wallowing in grief and despair? Did you miss the earlier several posts arguing that Jesus gave us an effective way of coping with this?

 

God teaching anybody has nothing to do with it, it just is. It's not like God is "making" bad stuff happen to teach us a lesson. It just happens to be the way the universe works, nothing more, nothing less.

My point was that with the idea that with suffering there must be no God is the implication that if God did exist and was loving well then no bad things would happen. That just simply is not how it works and is the result of a very egocentric viewpoint of humanity. The rain falls on the just and the unjust the same, it just is the way it is.
Why would you think God would protect us from any "bad" things happening in our lives? that is the point I was trying to make.

I honestly don't know how to express it any simpler than that. Maybe you are looking for some deep theological explanation for why God would allow evil to exist and "bad" things to happen. Those are a dime a dozen and they all fail because things are the way they are.
We are the ones that quantify things into "good" and "bad". A hurricane is neither good or bad, it just is a weather event, no more no less.

Stop stressing and focusing on the outward appearance of things and focus more on the intent and motivation. If you focus on intention and motivation rather that the outward action, all the contradictions fall away and it makes much more sense. Our physical vehicles are temporary, it's our intentions and motivations that last and carry weight.
I honestly do not know how to express my views any clearer than that.

 

This is bizarre. Throughout this thread I've been expressing a view that is exactly the opposite of the one you attribute to me. Further discussion is obviously pointless, since you're arguing with a position I never took. Is English your first language?

 

No English is my first language
I agree and this is the reason I usually avoid such discussions. they to often rely too much on personal interpretation and subtle nuances of that interpretation.
No hard feelings I hope.

 

I got a 32-inch 720p LCD Flat Panel HDTV for 50 bucks, the first thing to come on the screen while hooking up was my main man Joel Oltesten https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOA9zGsnOV4&feature=related"]YouTube- Joel Osteen - How Big is Your God?
so what hes saying is the crackheads dna was programed to bring me tv sets...
thats some deep shit there.. I shoulda give him 60..