help make this happen!

In 2009 the federal government spent around 3,518,000,000,000 dollars.
They collected 2,105,000,000,000. All those taxes, damn.
That leaves 1,410,000,000,000 gap.
They borrow some of the gap. Some from china, the rest from the federal reserve(which just prints new money causing inflation and lowering quality of life).
Our current debt is around 13,616,000,000,000.
It cost 202,000,000,000 to service the debt last year(or was that this year, oh well, doesn't matter).

According to the U.S. National Debt Clock, the figure for "unfunded liabilites" it has from the Federal Reserve is about 109.6 trillion dollars. This is the sum of the liabilities for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicare Part D (prescription drug prgram) based on current tax and funding inputs and on projections using these assumptions. That's things that the federal government has promised to pay. Future payments. In order just to pay THAT. It would cost 31,000 dollars a year per household for the next 75 years. That's how long into the future they figure liabilities. That's right. Ha!

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/Issuebrief203/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-federal-budget_N.htm

You can look the rest up for yourself.
Still think we should keep spending money? Let's do it and see what happens, I'm sure we will anyway.

 

In 2009 the federal government spent around 3,518,000,000,000 dollars.
They collected 2,105,000,000,000. All those taxes, damn.
That leaves 1,410,000,000,000 gap.
They borrow some of the gap. Some from china, the rest from the federal reserve(which just prints new money causing inflation and lowering quality of life).
Our current debt is around 13,616,000,000,000.
It cost 202,000,000,000 to service the debt last year(or was that this year, oh well, doesn't matter).

According to the U.S. National Debt Clock, the figure for "unfunded liabilites" it has from the Federal Reserve is about 109.6 trillion dollars. This is the sum of the liabilities for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicare Part D (prescription drug prgram) based on current tax and funding inputs and on projections using these assumptions. That's things that the federal government has promised to pay. Future payments. In order just to pay THAT. It would cost 31,000 dollars a year per household for the next 75 years. That's how long into the future they figure liabilities. That's right. Ha!

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/Issuebrief203/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-federal-budget_N.htm

You can look the rest up for yourself.
Still think we should keep spending money? Let's do it and see what happens, I'm sure we will anyway.

 

Bullshit, plain and simple.

http://polecolaw.newsvine.com/_news/2008/01/08/1212663-how-much-does-welfare-cost

I haven't seen my brother in 10 years, we don't speak.

I worked from the time I was 12 until I retired at 62, with 4 years out of work because my profession died in 2002. I worked in security after that. I spent 2 years of active duty in the navy, I've built my own house and helped a friend build his. Lazy, I think not.

My wife had cancer for 4 years and I spent everything I had taking her and our daughters everywhere she wanted to go so she could see and do everything she wanted before she died. I had no idea my profession would die 6 months after she did and my health would get very bad. Despite the fact that it left me broke, I would do it all again and probably sell my home so I could do more. And, I doubt seriously that you have the faintest idea what it's like to give everything, including your health, to make another person's life better.

You're bitching about what's probably a buck and a half a day out of your taxes to help those who cannot do for themselves, what a whiner, or would that be wiener.


You don't know Jack Shit about what you're saying here. Get your ass out of those damn Libertarian blogs and read some real facts. Maybe take some courses at your community college, if you ever get interested in learning anything useful.

As far as your accusation of murder against the president because he gave an order to capture a terrorist who is killing Americans, that tells me you aren't worth my time, I'm done with this thread.

.

 

Gee, I wish I was in your tax bracket.


ZW

 

You probably are, or not far off. Look at everything they cut from your check 1st. Then Figure in whatever you pay in sales tax for you location. Then add in property taxes. Even if you rent you pay them because they just get added to the rent. Probably more for renters because property taxes are higher on rental properties and they are passed on to you. The figure in additional taxes on gas, and cigarettes and/or alcohol if you smoke or drink. Then add in the fcc fees that you pay on you cable, internet, phone. Extra taxes on your power bill and water. You can find out what these are by looking on your bills. Then you cave the tax when you get your car tag. There are more but that's a good start. Now add all that up and see what % of you pay goes to taxes.
Yes, FCC fees are taxes. Just cause they give it a different name doesn't mean its different. See for yourself, don't take my word for it. It takes a bit of work because they try to split it up and hit you for a little here, a little there so you don't notice. It adds up though. If you have a little more you just end up with other taxes that you probably don't pay. Capital gain, estate, etc.
Let me know what it is when you add it all up.

After all of that you have inflation. It is caused by the printing of fresh money to cover some of the gap between revenue and reciepts. Inflation causes the value of you money to decrease so your quality of life goes down. It's the "hidden tax". They take the value of your savings.
Don't buy it? Look up what the value of the dollar has done since the 70's when the severed the last ties with gold. See for yourself. People want to blame businesses for it though. Back then a man could work and support his family. Now both parents working barely make ends meet. This is dispite wages going up. They can't keep up with inflation though.

Do the research, see for yourself. I'm tired and don't really have the time to find everything for you, and as far as what YOU pay, I can't do that for you.

 

you haven't seen or talked to your brother in 10 years but know what he pays in taxes?

Yea the federal INCOME TAX is around 13%. That doesn't include the ss tax they take out of your check, or the medicare, or the state taxes. Then there is 10% sales tax on every dollar you spend. Then additional gas taxes. Then property taxes. Etc. Etc. Etc. I never said we pay 60% in income taxes. I said 60% in ALL taxes. Sorry you didn't understand what the word ALL meant, even though I explained it then.

the gdp has NOTHING to do with the amount collected by the government vs what it spends in receipts. Do you even know what the gdp is?
Is a 5 year old FORUM POST that has nothing to do with the amount spent vs taxes collected the only thing you could find? Really? Your own pie chart that you posted earlier exposes that as bs. You know, the one that breaks down federal spending. Btw, just a couple % increase in gdp is a BIG DEAL. You should look up what part of the gdp is government vs consumer spending and how that has changed. After you look up what the gdp is 1st.

He's an american citizen, regardless of what he may have done(don't think he was involved in 9/11 either, those guys are dead, including osama). We still have due process. Judicial oversight? What! The problem isn't going after him. The problem is signing a capture or KILL(why do you keep leaving out the kill part? Do you think if he's found they'll send some people to get him or drop a bomb killing him and everyone who happens to be nearby) order without ANY judicial oversight against an american citizen. If you can't see that is borderline tyranny the good riddance. I never said murderer but you hear and read what you want I guess.

Community collage my ass. I was reading Frederik Ballast in junior high. Les Misribles by 9th grade for fun. I took collage classes in high school. They didn't challenge me and a carreer working on ships in the fresh air was more appealing. I don't generally go to libertarian forums. Those idiots just sit around arguing about the "evils" of fractional reserve banking. Ha, as if.

I work my ass off with a spine that was fractured in 2 places in an accident. Most of my hard work goes towards the home I bought and am still paying for my sister and nephews after their home burnt down. I know all about sacrifice. Don't expect me to have sympathy for those who don't do it. Besides, the system is unsustainable. Lack of sympathy is a good way to cope with supporting and trying to do the things that must be done to avoid disaster.



I'm very sorry about your wife. I don't know pain like that.

 

Doing the math, unless you're in the top income bracket I fail to see how even with all taxes put together you could come close to 60% of your income in taxes. You also fail to mention the fact despite overlaping taxes, many states don't have income tax, some don't have sales tax, a large percent of Americans rent and don't pay any property tax, ect.

Also stop talking about inflation, it's fun to throw fancy words around, but you consistently fail to mention that wage inflation kept pace with or exceed monetary inflation for most income brackets until the late 90's.

 

Did you add it up or are you just blowing smoke?
SOME states don't have income taxes and SOME states don't have sales taxes(not sure about that 1, can you name 1?). Not A LOT of states. Your bing dilibertly misleading. States with no income taxes usually have higher property or sales tax to make up the difference. If you pay rent your still paying property tax, IT'S INCLUDED IN THE PRICE OF YOUR RENT. You think your apartment complex doesn't just pass that on to you? Ha! If not then how come whenever property taxes go up rent does too?

Did you go look up what the value of the dollar has done? Probably not.
Look up the value of the dollar, then look up how much pay has increased. Your dead wrong but I'm tired of dealing. Educate yourself or be dumb, doesn't matter to me. If nothing else go look it up just to shove it in my face and prove me wrong.
Sorry if the word inflation is too big for ya. How about quantative easing? That's what the federal reserve calls it. They just decieded to do another round of "quantative easing". That's printing more money for those that don't like big words. I can give you a reading list of economic books if you like. Both from the austrian and kensian school of economics. That why you can learn both sides and think for yourself. Make up your own mind.
Don't make up you mind before you know both sides though, then it's just closed.
Good luck with your education! Let me know if you want a reading list. For about 100 bucks you can have a college level knowledge of economics.

 

MGibson, I believe you have made your point and I disagree with little of it, but I don't believe any form of capitalistic solution is viable.... Out of the ashes something better may rise...:sultan:

BTW, my state has no sales tax.. but we are blessed with some of the lowest wages, highest job related fatality's and highest suicide rates in the lower 48!

as you may have noticed, I'm an optimist...:2thumbsup:

ZW

 

I don't think there is any solution with the system we have now. We have corporatism and it's bs.
I really don't see it changing though. It'll just end, one way or the other.
Something new will rise. I just hope it's something based on individual liberty and not collectivism. Individualism or collectivism is always the real question.
Republicans are collectivist(fascist) and so are dems(socialist). It's just different sides of the same coin. Neither works and it's sad that those are our options.
I'd like anarchy if I though it was sustainable or worked but oh well.

 

I think an Anarcho-socialist solution would work and would be sustainable but the actual system would necessarily be a work in progress with respect to the creative capacity of all peoples to democratically form a system of governance that enhances the quality of life for all.
The real power lies in the hands that actually produce the wealth.
The worker/consumer. We, the people could crush corporations overnight... but maybe we shouldn't crush them, instead force them to bend to our will. one of the ways we do that is by holding our political leaders accountable.

If the people only realized that we can hold our political leaders accountable for their corporate cock-sucking then maybe we could start to get a handle on this mess.
I really doubt this will happen in my lifetime but what the hell, might inspire the next gen, ya know?

ZW

 

This articles was just sent to me this morning. It explains inflation and the federal reserve pretty well.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1186

 

Yeah, it could happen. Probably not in America, though. We're a fairly retarded people.

I mean seriously, fucking thunderously retarded. Like Rain Man retarded, only without the ability to count jelly beans so quickly.

 

Anarcho-socialism, or anarcho-syndacalism, is unsustainable and impossible. It would always turn into state socialism. State socialism is always prone to oppression. You should read Mises: Socialism. You can read it for free online at http://www.econlib.org/ they have many good books on economics there that you can read for free.
Personally, I'm a minimalist. If no government won't work then have as little as economically possible. Which is the libertarian goal. I could go on forever about why it wouldn't work(management of resources, pricing problems, etc) but I don't have time. Mises covers everything better than anyone. To the point that its indisputable that any form of socialism would work. Not that corporatism works as well as they try to say. It's very important to recognise the difference between corporatism and actual free markets.

For more info you can snoop around the economy library that I mentioned about. Visit and snoop around www.campainforliberty.com or visit http://mises.org/

I think with some research you'd agree. Take a little time. It's always great to know the views of others in detail anyway, it helps when you debate. That's why I read things like The Communist Manifesto.

 

sez you. I'm a Chomski freak.
You strike me like so many other rich people complaining someones getting yours.

See ya :seeya:

ZW

 

I tend to agree.

ZW

 

I'm far from rich.
Chomski is an idiot. A rich idiot at that. Who gives not jack to charity and looks for every tax loophole he can. Hypocrite.
Google the word hypocrisy and Chomsky.

Also, instead of just listening to one guy who is only regurgitated other peoples ideas with none of his own like he's some kind of god. Why don't you expand your knowledge and read a variety of ideas and think for your self. Or you can let other people think for you like other "Chomsky freaks".

 

I guess Chomsky need all his tax loop holes so nobody "gets his"

 

If you've ever read any Marx you would no Chomsky just repeats and rewords the ideas of others. He has no economic back ground, he's a professor of linguistics. Although years ago he was considered cutting edge in the field of linguistics since then all of his theories have been disproven. Like I said, he's an idiot.

His whole thing is "if you don't agree with me your an idiot" and like Marx, since he has no real ground to stand on in intellectual debate, he attacks the people who disagree with him instead of attacking their ideas.
They work under the premise that if you can discredit the person the idea isn't valid. Its a false premise. The Nazis thought that only the German mind was logical, that other races had different illogical mental structures. The idea has been proven wrong, but it wasn't wrong just because they were Nazis. If that alone made them wrong then if a Nazi came up with a great mathematical proof that was still unproven would it also be wrong just on the basis of them being a Nazi.

Chomsky, like Marx and Engles before him operates under the premise that the bourgeois mind is somehow different than the proletarian mind. That they are wired different based on class. Therefore the Bourgeois can only come up with ideas that support the Bourgeois. By their own standard they can't come up with any ideas that are proletarian because they themselves are members of the bourgeois class but they proclaim that they and they alone are somehow immune to the effects.
Any proletarian that disagrees with then is infected. All economist are sycophants of the bourgeois. Pretty much if you don't agree with them and get in line all of you ideas are invalid because only their thoughts are logical.
By using this argument they avoid any actual debate of discussion of ideas. They attack those who disagree instead of attacking other ideas.
That argument is what has cause the resurgence in socialist idealalogy. The debate was over and they had lost by the end of the 19th century. They had no ground to stand on with they're arguments. So they attacked the people who disagreed with them because they could not win in an argument of ideas.