"Gun town U.S.A." Not a murder in 25 years!!!

Thanks for posting these studies, aristartle. However, the only thing they really seem to prove is that suicidal people will be more likely to commit suicide with a gun when they have access to one:



"Most are suicides
In each year from 1979 to
2002, about four-fifths of all
firearms-related deaths were suicides. Homicides usually accounted for around
15%, and about 4% of deaths involving a firearm
were unintentional.
Beginning in the mid-1980s through 2002, the rate
of suicide involving a firearm fell from 5 to 2 deaths
per 100,000. The falling rate of firearms-related
suicides is reflected in a declining use of shooting
as a means of committing suicide. Among all
suicides committed from 1979 and throughout the
1980s, around one-third involved firearms.
Beginning in the early 1990s, this share began to
drop, and by 2002, about 1 in 6 suicides was carried
out with a firearm. As gun-related suicides declined,
suicide by suffocation/hanging became more
common: the rate rose from about 3 to 5 deaths
per 100,000. Still, the downturn in firearms-related
suicides contributed to a decline in the overall suicide
rate, which fell from about 14 to 12 deaths per
100,000 population.
The decline in the rate of suicides related to
firearms accounted for most of the decrease in the
firearms-related death rate."



This is the main problem with these "studies". Grouping firearms suicides together with firearms homicides is, in my opinion, yet another carefully crafted means of swaying public opinion in favor of gun control.

 

In a word: Nope.

We have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights,

that, for whatever reason (and many of their reasons are given in quotes)

the forebears of this country wanted to protect our very, most personal rights, like being able to defend ourselves ~

against whoever/whatever, with whatever we choose.

That is our Right.

It could be yours, too, but it seems like you'd rather give it up, than stand up for it,

instead, defending your countries stances on gun control.

Right now, with our socio-economic atmosphere being what it is, is NO TIME

TO THROW AWAY OUR CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS!!!

And right now, you're not going to find a lot of Americans whom are Pro Gun Control, i can guarantee you.

 

full article at word press dot com

Sounds reasonable to me ~

Either GIVE EVERYONE guns,

or TAKE AWAY EVERYONES guns.

Well, the Take Away option doesn't work,

unless you made it like a Life Sentence to get caught with a gun inside city limits, but there would still be SOME criminals willing to risk it.

And before anyone starts jumping to conclussions (yet again!!!),

maybe you'd like to see where i'm going with my "drivel."

 

Okay, since the end time of our PM conversation:

3-12 0829 Post #48 ~ Balbus orders us to forget the Original Post because he's interested in something else ~ that everyone has already been discussing;

3-12 2239 Post #56 ~ i ask for ANY proofs and give my opinion, without insulting anyone, i don't think;

3 - 13 0456 Post #58 ~ i ask a couple of questions and imagine up a scenario that would explain "Why" Obama might want to arm America and Americans ~ you know, a little humour with an outlandish CT?;

3-13 0709 Post #59 ~ Balbus asks his already answered questions, again;

3-13 0912 Post #67 ~ What Older Water says in this is ALL true ~ Mama stole my first thought of an example ~ but really it could be anything you hear about and don't want to happen to you and yours, whether it's catastrophic, or just everyday living. THAT does NOT equate to Fear, anymore than ANY insurance, or,say, a 1-month-unlimited-rides bus pass that keeps you from having to walk a million miles to work.

3-13 1117 Post #73 ~ Mama ~ OMG!!! Great minds really DO think alike!!! :sifone:

< Huffs out on fingernails and rubs them on chest! )

Which means my mind is almost as good as YOURS!

Sort of.

Kind of..

Okay, well...

only if YOU want to admit that our minds think alike, on a public forum. FROLMAO

 

Seeing as Post #67 was posted by Balbus, I you may have made a typo and meant Post #76.

 

Mama

This is so sad I thought you might be something new, a pro-gunner who was willing to debate.

This reply proves that wrong – it is the same old, same old, been there, done that.

And it might seem clever but is far from it.

The car insurance people do use fear, the fear of accidents, maiming or death to sell their product and as well as giving the idea that the insurance is a way of dealing with these problems or alleviating them.

But remember if someone came on the politics forum selling car insurance they posts would be deleted and they would be banned as spammers.

However you seem to be arguing that guns are just like car insurance, that pro-gunners are just advertising a product by using fear, the fear of attack, maiming or death and by giving the impression that guns are a way of dealing with these things or alleviating them.

They’re just using viral marketing (e.g. using internet forums to advertise)

So it’s not politics is just advertising.

You even compound this by saying social and economic factors and issues (in other words politics) should be completely separated from what is being said here about guns.

So what virtually all the pro-gunners are doing here are promoting (advertising) guns.

Please explain why these posts and the posters shouldn’t be banned as spammers?

 

madcap

Been here done that covered it all at one point or another – as I’ve said go read my past posts on this subject.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=189921

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...=231360&page=9

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=253937

*

But as I’ve already pointed out in this thread all that just seems like distractions.

What has always interested me has been the mentality and attitudes of the pro-gunners toward their fellow citizens and the society they live in.

And that’s the one area pro-gunners don’t want to or even refuse to explore.

They only seem interested in the promotion of guns.

 

OWB

Does large scale gun ownership, which in the US has historically and culturally been born out of fear of others a sign of a healthy society or one that has problems?

Fear of invasion, fear of the ethic groups, fear of opposing political views, fear of other social classes, fear of criminals.

Evasion, you are not answering the question, but even then you need to clarify what you mean. I mean to me this seems to imply that you don’t give a fuck, that a healthy society isn’t possible so what’s the point of even trying to improve things – an acceptance as if to say that if the world is shit we should all just be happy to live in shit.
*
And why does gun ownership seem to be seen and promoted by many as a means of dealing with the symptoms of societal problems while they seemingly want to ignore the possible causes?
Dealing with the symptoms of societal problems? As an individual there is not much one can to do to fix societal problems, other than trying to not be part of them, on the other hand an individual can be prepared to save one's own family if those societal problems come into one's home.

Once more the seeming same mentality as above. Fuck other people, nothing can be done.

*

What words are you taking about and why do you believe they’ve been taken out of context?

As I’ve said already (maybe I need to shout louder?) that has been covered and at great length.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=189921

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...=231360&page=9

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=253937

*

Been there done that - http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=253937

*

This is more interesting as an expression of attitudes and mentality and once more very similar to earlier.

It a shrug of the shoulders, a cop out, its seems to be expressing the view that the poster doesn’t really care that much what people do and doesn’t really care that much about their society.

Also it implies you see guns as a product to be sold for the supposed lessening of fear or for hunting, they’re noting to do with politics.

If that the position pro-gun post selling guns in that way are just adverts and advertising isn’t allowed o the politics forum.

 

As I’ve said – this issue to me seems like a part of the American culture wars, and the culture wars were just a ploy by certain political groups to distract attention from other issues that frankly seem more important, but which they didn’t want to discuss because they didn’t have any decent arguments.

So they shout things like ‘freedom’ and ‘rights’ but in the most vaguest and perfunctory way so they are slogans not arguments, in the same way that they seem to call up the ghosts of the Founding Fathers and the US Constitution as if those men where venerable saints not back biting politicians and as if that paper was sacred text not a compromised and flawed document stuck together through arm twisting and concession.

Anyway I’m not interested with the diversions or mythologizing.

If this is a real political issue it needs to be placed in a political context and that context has to be discussed as should be the wider political views of those promoting guns.

Refusal to do so would seem to indicate that this isn’t a political issue it is just pro-gunners trying to sell guns and advertising is against forum guidelines.

 

i'm not entirely sure how you extract an culture of advertising terror from the sensible need to protect one's assets (insurance) and call it spamming. i'm not really sure how your head works. you asked why i think the way i do, why i'm pro-gun ownership, i answered and am called a pro gun spammer. if you're not liking the answers you get, ask better questions. that's like calling people who like a certain band spammers for the band every time they talk positively about them.

you have to seperate the gun ownership issue from the social problems for sheer practicality. you'll never get the results you want when you attack something that is ultimately a symptom of a breakdown of society, not a cause of it.

 

Because we advertise what we see as a fundamental freedom we're just advertising gun sales? Nah, try again. See the difference is we don't advertise guns, no one here has advertised guns, we've made our point onto why we believe people either have a right to own guns or the fact gun control does not work. See our side doesn't take away rights, we don't force people to own guns, we demand people have the right to decide for themselves. Anti-gun people want legislation to limit the freedom of other people to own a gun. This is all about politics.

I don't really think it's a culture war of guns either, yes the general Democrats want to take your guns, Republicans want to arm everyone to teeth, ect, but lets look at the laws. The 2 states that have no laws at all against concealed carry and anyone who can legally own a gun can walk around with a concealed gun with no permit is Alaska..................and Vermont, one of the most conservative and most liberal states in the union. Same here in good old liberal Connecticut, we're in theory a "may issue" state but basically work as a "shall issue" state in that anyone who applies for a CCP will get one. And that has been the trend in almost every state since the early 1980's in that in just about every state almost anyone can now get a concealed carry permit.

And I believe our view of our fellow citizens is completley correct. We're not afraid or paranoid of them. If I live to be 95, the extreme odds are that I will never be mugged, have my house robbed, have a car stolen, be shot, be attacked, ect by a long shot, but, but it could happen. If I wake up at 3am one day and know for certain that someone is robbing my house, I'm not going to sit there and think "damn, wish I could do something, well, time to sit here and wait for the guys in blue and hope this guy downstairs isn't psycho"

 

Balbus:The rich always get richer,the poor get poorer, not even taking into account the current worldwide economic mess.The minimum wage has always been calculated to be a little money, but never enough to really live on.Those who have been able to follow politics since the 40's know the differance between the political parties.We also know how they are similiar.What I'm getting at is ,even tho the democrats have more concern for the middle class than the republicans,it is in fact the vast middle class---the ones who built,made and bought damn near everything, have always been shafted and never as much as right now.The schools are failing to educate,the factories are steadily moving off-shore,the rich can use loopholes to keep from paying taxes,the car and oil companies have us by the short ones,gangs are allowed to flourish and terrorize our citizens,our government fails in it's feeble attempts to help when natural disasters happen and to some citizens all this is just too much to take.The daily grind and the feeling of helplessness and the steady beat of bad news after bad ---drives some to take up arms in their desperation and start blasting whomever poor souls happen to be in the way.Has nothing to do with hunting---has nothing to do with going out to the country to shoot at cans--has nothing to do with those who feel guns are tools.These days SOME gun ownership DOES have something to do with fear ---that's what sells.In my experience with gun owners throughout my life,the majority were hunters or "plinkers".I've discussed the underlying societal problems as you seem to want (not in as much depth as one could do)according to the way I see them.I don't hunt ,but I like to shoot at targets such as cans and the like,but I'd be VERY concerned as to the motives of a government that would start confiscating guns.By the way did you know that there are about 400,000 mostly un-educated very violent gang members in LA,most of whom probably have guns?-----I say if their parents had good decent paying jobs(maybe some of the ones that went overseas) and the gang members were properly educated ----this would not be.---------How many times does capitalism have to be rescued from the greedy ones that always seem to drive us to our knees?

 

A predicable answer but once again you're just making a statement and expecting it to be excepted as true without anything to back it up. I could just as easily say that large scale gun ownership in the US has historically and culturally been born out of a need to hunt for food and today they still own guns primarily for the purpose of hunting.

Evasion? Not at all, you’re the one talking about a “Healthy Society” it would be nice to know what you mean by it or if there is some sort of “Healthy Society” you could point to so we’d know what you’re talking about, so we could actually discuss whether gun ownership is a sign of one or not.

I think you are assuming a lot here. No one, at least in this thread has said that the only way to deal with societal problems is to get a gun. Like I said, personally I don’t own a gun and never have and yet I deal with societal problems on a daily basis.

Quite honestly, I offered to discuss societal problems with you but you are the one who has not responded, so maybe you’re just putting your own attitude on others.

Why do I believe they’ve been taken out of context? Because, well, they were taken out of context.

Well you just don’t get it do you, I’m pro gun and willing to talk about societal problems and without the topic of guns even being mentioned. Which kind of disproves your whole point, now doesn't it!

You seem so caught up in proving yourself right it seems you’ve forgotten how to listen or debate. Just because someone is not perfect or has made mistakes does not mean that, that person can’t have a good idea and in any case, an idea has to be discussed on its own merits and who put it forth really doesn’t matter.

 

mama

And how have you supposedly ‘answered’?

I mean I asked a couple of questions in post 27, you haven’t answered them.

You’ve told me you’re a hunter and I said in post 45

And I asked a question that didn’t get answered.

You said it was about poverty and hopelessness and in post 54 I said

You didn’t address any of that.

You said it was the way people view the subject and in post 59 I said I agreed and pointed out that that was what I wanted to understand but that so many pro-gunners didn’t seem to want to debate.

And I asked some questions you haven’t answered.

I mean have you noticed this trend here Mama of just not answering questions?

You seemed to want to separate politics from the guns issue

And I pointed out that that was the problem and why the gun issue seems to be a way of diverting people way from political discussion onto a cultural subject.

You haven’t addressed that either.

Oh and that’s when you started to imply that guns were a product just like insurance and I asked some other questions.

And do you know what – you haven’t answered them either.

In fact you haven’t actually said why you are a pro-gunner beyond saying you are a hunter – well that fine, but that is not how pro-gun arguments are usually framed, invariably the argument comes down to fear…..oh just a minute haven’t we been here before?

Look if you want to talk about hunting with a gun – that’s just great I’m sure there’s a forum somewhere to discuss that on, but this is a politics forum.

In political terms this seems to me to be part of the culture wars a distraction from the US’s many other problems.

 

Mad

As I’ve pointed out the effectiveness or not of guns to tackle societal problems is not overwhelmingly for or against being seemingly more about statistical hocus pocus or even on the interpretation put on the same data.

Just go and look at the threads I’ve linked to.

So this isn’t about overwhelming evidence it is about general political attitudes and mentality.

And for some reason pro-gunners don’t like talking about those.

Instead they seem to be ‘selling’ guns as a product.

You’re doing it – buy a gun you say – buy a gun even if you’ll never need one – buy a gun because it could happen – buy a gun because one day A PYCHO might INVADE YOUR HOUSE.

Then – cha-ching, a sale.

And then there is a change to the product being sold.

The one that has often turns up here - The rapist loving pinko-liberals want to take away your only protection from the PYCHO’S THAT WANT TO INVADE YOUR HOUSE.

BIG BAD government wants to take away your guns so they can impose a SOCIALIST TYRANNY.

And so on.

*

 

OWB

LOL…but not predictable enough that you have a decent reply?
Thing is there is a historical and cultural hunting element in US gun ownership, I’m not disputing that and as I’ve said if people wish to talk about hunting, fine, they can go to a hunting forum.
But you are in a politics forum.
Also this subject has been covered a couple of times already in this thread, (and a hundred times in the threads gave you in links) why are you ignoring to read my posts but seem to think you’re informed enough on my opinions to make a reply?
TO REPEAT - The hunting angle is not how the pro-gunners usually frame their argument; instead they seem to concentrate on the fear angle – fear of government or fear of crime being the most common.
The evidence is in the posts - go and read them.
*

OH, I see you have no vision or hope for the future, a place where people don’t fear their fellow citizens enough that they feel they need to be armed to protect themselves from them?
Oh and also you still haven’t answered the question.
*
And why does gun ownership seem to be seen and promoted by many as a means of dealing with the symptoms of while they seemingly want to ignore the possible causes?

Again could you please read my fucking posts?
What is the point – oh I know what the point is – distraction.
You’re not interested in a real debate.
AGAIN- It is the omission of alternatives that is striking (see below)
*

 

OWB

Oh for fuck sake, why not think before trying to make some smart arse remark?

Do I have to treat you as a child?

If pro-gunners were interested in discussing such societal problems they would be often here on the politics forum, doing so.

But in the main they aren’t.

HEY, LETS LOOK AT YOUR OWN RECORD

I don’t recognise you as someone that comes here often but hey I might have missed you.

BUT it is possible to go back and look at your last 500 posts, that should be enough.

And guess what besides your contribution to this gun thread I believe you posted just four posts, 4 posts, FOUR POSTS in 500 in politics.

Most of your time seems spent in Christian forums, bit of gardening, you did however post a video in Conspiracy what was some kind of anti-lefty thing called ‘Against the USA, Naked Communist Conspiracy Theory, NWO, Mind Control Report’

Anyway maybe your past contributions to the politics forum were long insightful pieces on the US’s societal problems.

NO… nope…absolutely not.

A couple of throw away lines in a thread on the Middle Eastern war
It's WAR in the Middle East!
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=5120753#post5120753
01-07-2009, 11:16 PM

And a couple of banal and rather sad bits in
How will the Obama administration handle the illegal alien problem?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=5114377#post5114377
That reduced the important issue of illegal immigration to some conservative slanted satirical comments. It seemed like something a right wing shock jock would say rather than a rational and genuine contribution to debate.

So frankly you are an example of what I’m talking about.

STOP WASTING MY TIME – there are plenty of threads in politics to bring up issues beyond guns, try one, or surprise, surprise you could start one.
Stop playing stilly and childish games of one-upmanship you’re not that good at it.

 

You don’t know?

You’re basically saying you don’t really know you just thought it sounded clever so you thought you’d try it on but now you’ve been asked you simply haven’t a clue what you meant.

Again - Stop wasting my time.

*

Once more you try to be clever and fall flat on your face.

(See above)

It turns out you prove my point for me.

*

OH REALLY RICH coming from you who clearly hasn’t read a bloody thing half the time and the other half seems more interested in trying to be a smart arse (and failing).

And I notice you’re not denying that you have fallen for the myths (and the slogans) of the past and are therefore basing your views and attitudes on shaky ground.

 

Frankly I’m getting a lot of brush off and people trying to be smart arses.

But so far no new insights.

Why not start addressing what I’ve said rather than doing anything but.

 

alright, let's see if we can address those points. threads get pretty long and lotta verbage gets lost:

"“But that’s it - I’ve meet many pro-gunners here over the years that have been very vocal on defending gun ownership or claiming gun ownership is a good way of dealing with social problems such as crime but they don’t seem that interested in debates on poverty or hopelessness or the ways of tackling them, and I’ve really tried to engage them on those subjects.

In fact many of their contributions to the more social or economic threads have been negligible, derisory or down right none existent.

And while many have claim that they are interested in tackling these things, when actually pushed to give their views it was very often clear that they hadn’t given it much thought let alone consideration and at other times there ideas seemed to be calculated to increase poverty and hopelessness (getting rid of all welfare and other social programmes, installing free market economic ideas and other things like that).” "

this isn't a question, it's an accusation wrapped in an assumption and given a barbed end by ignorance of other people's motivations and interests. while some people would get all derisive and nasty in regards to the social breakdown and thus usage of guns, well, it's because they, much like you, have no idea of what or whom they're talking about. it happens in every walk of life, apparently. i primarily make no comment on these issues because i'm reading other people's responses. i'm not the brightest crayon in the box, i know this, and i don't want to get into pissing contests over serious issues. i simply have no idea what to say. so i read.