Gramma flipped out...

Ever watch (or catch) one of those cute TV shows like the Brady Bunch, where there is a stereotypical "perfect" family, and then the little kid stands up for something he/she believes in, or says "I don't deserve this award" and gives it to someone else or says, "I don't really want to do this," then explains why, and then everyone is like "we understand, it's okay" and there is a happy ending?

That's why artsy's grandmother could NOT be in one of those shows, because she's got issues.

A good grandmother would be more understanding and respectful, and CERTAINLY not as rash and demented as to disown her grandchild.

 

She started the hostility. I don't understand why she didn't tell her parents and the rest of her family beforehand that she did not want to be confirmed. I certainly am saying that she should respect their beliefs, whether her family respects her's or not. If you disagree with that, then I think your ethical priorities are a little out of whack. I'm only suggesting that she pay lip service to her parent's church until she learns more about her own beliefs. If you ask me, 14 or even 16 is too young to ask any person to commit to a specific faith.

Again, there's a difference between submission and lip service. Now, it may not be the best choice for everybody, but I think it is the best choice for a person who values family.

That's great. But unfortunately not everyone has parents are so understanding. I know mine aren't, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about their feelings any less. So, when it came my time to get confirmed, I went through with it even though I didn't agree with a lot of Catholic doctrine.

Ironically, I think that a coast-to-coast broadcast would have been more appropriate. At least it's directed to an impersonal audience and not to her family's friends and peers.

Probably. But I don't really believe that, if there is a God, He would be upset by what I did. And what the congregation doesn't know can't hurt them. I think that church services are really more for the participants than for God, anyway.

No, they're both responsible. Don't try to get her out of taking responsibility for her own actions.

 

No, it would have been better to have never told the congregation at all, and just go through the movements, no beliefs attached. But it doesn't seem to matter much anymore, so I guess we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, which I kind of enjoy if you're up for it.

I agree that it's a failing on her grandma's part, but that doesn't mean she should break just break all ties with her family without trying to resolve the conflict. No one who valued family in the least would do such a thing.

Kid, by which I mean the original poster, if you want to take advice from a guy who will insult your family, doesn't care about them, and obviously doesn't care about you, then you deserve what's coming to you.

It's up to you, kid.

She didn't tell the people in charge, she shouted it from the rooftops. Bottom line, I think she fucked up. That's okay, we all do it. But sometimes you just have to ask for forgiveness and do what it takes to make it up to the people you love. Bite the bullet.

Well dude, I'm sorry to say it but it sounds like you have some serious problems with your father and I really hope you work them out, but it's not right for you to project your own feelings on to another person's situation.

Not a fan of taking the higher road, eh?

(1) She should have known her family would be crushed, or at least her grandmother. (2) Her family has every right to be crushed. (3) No, they feel crushed because their daughter and sister is breaking a tradition and a part of her family's identity.

Well, we can either believe that her family members are a bunch of neo-nazi fascists who want to warp her mind for the purposes of evil, or that they actually care about a number of things, including: (1) the fate of her immortal soul, (2) her upbringing, (3) her having an understanding of her roots. Which seems more likelly to you?

Look, I'm really sorry about your problems, but you shouldn't immediately just to the conclusion that her family is, in any way, abusive.

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I mean, just because some members of her family acted underhandedly in that particular situation, doesn't mean they're bad people.

I think it's a minor failure on her grandma's part. But I know that if anyone ever called my grandma a racist to my face, that person would be in a fight he wouldn't easily be able to walk away from.

Because you've clearly demonstrated how well that's been working out for you.

 

Believe me, my ethical priorities are in complete alignment

Disagreeing with you doesn't make my ethics slip. I'll say it again, respect is a two way street. If parent's don't respect their children, how can they expect their children to even properly learn about respect, let alone show respect themselves. Too many people treat children like lesser humans, and in most cases when that happens, the children start to act like lesser humans, just the way they are treated. But it doesn't sound like she has those problems with her parents, her grandmother is the issue here.

If 14 or 16 is too young to ask any person to commit to a specific faith, then why should she pay lip service to her grandmother's faith, why should she have to go through confirmation to please grandma? I can't imagine a home situation where the children have to lie to their family in order to be accepted. It sets very bad groundwork for their relationship in the future, and other relationships she will have in the future.

She is still a child at home right now, and therefore still learning how the world works. If she learns now that she just has to pay lip service to make people happy, and her life and ideas are worth no more than that, that is exactly what she will be doing the rest of her life. Paying lip service to aviod conforntation, just like her family taught her. Just like you are encouraging her to do.

What it sounds like, however, is her parents raised an independant, honest, open-minded daughter that they are proud of, and it is the close-minded grandmother that is the problem. I have one of those too, old and set in her ways.

And she should take responsibility for her actions, she should be proud! She laid her beliefs on the table, didn't lie to a congregation, and recieved support from almost everyone. He grandmother should take responsibility as well, for causing the rift in the relationship. It is no fault of the childs if her religious beliefs, or at least her desire to explore religions, causes an old conservative grandmother to build walls within the family.

 

I think I may have to clear up the situation...

ok, when I went into the confirmation program, I had already had it preset I would confirm...so while I was taking the class, and over that year I started to discover what I thought was believable or wanted to believe. One of the major turning points was being disgusted by the class and organized religion, everyone was shoving down what I SHOULD be believing down my throat and left no room for anyone in my class to speak theur beliefs.

I didn't hide at all what I felt, I told my parents, and we had discussions...they were skeptical at first too...but they heard me out, and they realized that I had an idea what I wanted and they supported me.

I told my class from the minute I knew I didn't want to be confirmed, and so I had discussions with the assistant minister about my choice, and he realized I knew what I was talking about, and he supporeted me.

After I read my speech, the panel of elders came up and shook my hand and told me how noble I was to do such a thing...some of them had done the same thing and then became christians later on.

I may not believe what I do forever, so someday if I'm 65 and start going to church, and believe strongly in Jesus and god ad\nd whatever, maybe I'll do something then...but right now I shouldn't feel compelled to join something I dont believe in....it would be like joining things just because people tell me too

TO clairfy..the thread is "granndma flipped out" not "family flipped out" my mom says my grandmother is just freaking out because she is intimidated that I am the black sheep of the family...my grandmother has a hard time embracing differences, many times she wont admit it, but shes a racist anti-semite...and so on, plus she talks about everyone shes ever met (even her children) badly behind their backs for no reason, even if they have been anything but nice.

It seems that Hikky Z was just trying to prove a point by saying those things abiut my grandmother...personally I don't blame him because the way I put it makes my grandmother seem pretty grim, and it seems he was trying to show I did nothing wrong by passing the blame unto her

I'm sorry 14 or 16 year olds are too "young" to determine who they are...but thats the mentality for the draft, well, teenagers know nothing so lets send THEM off to war!
I will admit to it that I am an independant headstrong individual, who knows where she is in life and whats important, and It makes me angry when someone tells me otherwise becuase I'm "too young." I certantly know everything and havn't experienced a lot...but that doesn't mean I don't think.

FYI this all wasn't on the spur of the moment my "religious descision" I read and bought so many books, I have practically and entire religion and spirituality library. I chose atheism and buddhism becuase both conesided with what seemes right to me.

 

I'm not going to talk bad about your grandma dude, but man she should chill out, i mean i don't want to be saved either man. You gotta go your own way man, don't let your family make you who you are. Let her have her battle, you pick your's

 

Hmm... I feel like a bit of a jack-ass now. It sounds to me like you did act responsibly after all. But please keep two things in mind: (1) You shouldn't call your grandma an anti-semite, even if she is one. You'll regret it once she's gone. And (2) kids still don't know what they want when they're 16. I don't support the draft, that's just a big strawman argument. However, it sounds like the congregation would welcome you back into their faith if you should ever decide to return. So, no harm done that can't be fixed, right? I really think you should try to patch things up with your grandma, though.

Oh, and to sera michelle, there's nothing wrong with paying lip-service to make your family happy. I still do, and I have a great relationship with my family, as well as my own set of beliefs which differ in many respects from the beliefs held by most of the other members of my family. I just put my own beliefs on hold temporarily for a couple sundays a year to pay respect to the family. Is it dishonest? Maybe a little, in the same way that a little white lie is dishonest. So what's the big deal?

 

Well I guess it is important to me that my family know who I really am, and that they appreciate, respect, and love me for who I really am. Not for what their best idea of me is. If I was to pay lip service in order to always please my parents my relationship wouldn't be what it is with them today. We are very close, disagreements and all.

But like I said in a previous post:

They know how I feel about their religion, and my views on religion in general. But it isn't like I badger them about their faith or anything, although I don't go to church with them.

And there is nothing wrong with a little lip service. I told my mother her newly painted yellow walls looked good, when I really thought it was ugly. But something that is a large part of who you are, your ideals and spiritual beliefs, that is a whole other story. If I kept that from my family I would feel I was doing a disservice to our relationship.

 

Common Sense:

You know, I'd continue the argument just for the sake of it as well (because it IS interesting), but it looks like it's already been resolved.

So some closing thoughts instead ...

I think that sometimes, it is *advantageous* for both parties to just kind of pay lip service and deal with things ... but I think that this is only SOME times, and that doing so is still rooted in a lame foundation.

Also, I see your point about the "little white lie" analogy, I just think it's more important than that. I don't think that what you believe is a lot more fundamental than a little fib here and there such as "oh uh if you don't go to sleep, Santa won't come" or "Sorry I got stuck in traffic" (when you actually overslept or something). I think that it's important not to hide your beliefs from anyone (including your family) because if you keep your beliefs secret and hidden, it discourages mingling with other cultures and it also discourages unbounded exploration of what you believe. That's just how I see it, I guess.

artsy_freak45:

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to insult your whole family, I just have a habit of using really extreme comparisons to get a point across. Your family (and church) seems like good people, and I'm glad that with the exception of your grandmother, everything was resolved so well. I can't say that it would be the same case at my former church, but it is hard to imagine that the congregation would be very shunning for it.

Also, I'm sure your grandma is also a nice person (at least at face value), but it seems evident to me that she has a problem that you and her need to resolve, and perhaps few others that she alone needs to work on.

You're a nice person, right? (lol) Maybe you should try explaining to your grandma that, it's not that you dislike God or are rebelling against him, it's that you're trying to expand your mind and make the world a better place by thinking in different ways, even if that means you are risking the wrath of God. Just say "I don't think God would be upset with me for doing this." When it's put that way, I don't think even your grandma will be able to disown you. =P

Also, it's a good idea to realize, even if you think you'll never go back to Christianity, beliefs change over time, and you may find yourself growing back towards Christianity later on. At your age (not dissing you for being young!), even with reading a bunch of books, religion can be shaky ground, and you might later decide that you want to be, er, well, something else. Just keep your mind open, I guess that's all I'm really saying.

Also ... I think a big problem with the world is how parents look at children. I mean, in the former part of the 20th century, poor farmers had children JUST for the sake of having them help in the fields. Our kids have to learn more every day, they have to go off and fight wars, and nowadays, parents just don't care anymore and they do a bad job of parenting, and the children are blamed and treated for diseases like ADD, ADHD, clinical depression, etc.

We need to change this! When I was 13, I was capable of understanding some really advanced topics, but nobody ever cared. That's why I turned to programming (which my parents could never figure out in a hundred years). I think most people just take for granted that kids are stupid and don't know anything, and I think it's a big mistake to do so.

 

Hey, you voiced your opinion loud and clear even when people kept arguing...I respect that.

Thats a good point though...I'll have to watch out for what I say, when shes gone I'll feel like shit.

I love my family, and it sucks to not be wanted by the "head honcho" so I will try to work things out

Thanks to you all for advice...I really need It!

 

thats not always a good thing.. dont believe that all opinions are created equal -- theyre not.

it seems as though she doesnt really care about your feelings.. maybe you should just forget about her and live your life for yourself? lifes too short to try and please other people.

as you grow older, youll realize that your family has almost no imporatnce; you make your own family, with friends who actually care about you. dont worry about your biological family if they arent going to respect your choice.

 

Well, then everybody learned something today. Kinda gives me a warm funny feeling inside. I guess it really comes down to a question of priorities. If you want to establish a lasting relationship with your family, you should do everything you can to strengthen that relationship, other people just try to keep things civil, and other people are okay with having their family removed from their lives. On the other hand, all families are different and that means that some are harder to deal with than others, others are even just plain impossible to deal with. So, you should just do what's best for your particular situation. It's not really a matter of the "family values" debate at all.

 

I don't think common sense applies to this situation... If you can't be a bit of a rebel at 16, then when? May be at 30 or even 60? The only thing your family can ask from you is to be honest and it's even more important to be honest to yourself.

 

Thats really good advice