Get Rid Of Capitalism And Replace It With Something Nicer!

As Paul said, it's the system that's at fault, at least as far as I'm concerned. I've always been fairly left wing. At the time of the war in Afghanistan I became a lot more radical, got involved with radical left wing organisations, thinking that my fight would be against the capitalist system. But over the last two years I became very disillusioned by what I saw in the left as ammounting to a vague opposition to capitalism, but held back by ridiculously high levels of sectarian infighting. I thought maybe that they didn't hold the answers, that I should tone down my views to take part in the system to change it, to do pretty much what you have described. Reformism, and legal forms of protest. Over the last month all that changed again, a lot of what I've seen and done and studied has changed me. I'm no longer so disillusioned, I'm far more focussed than I've ever been before. The existing leftist groups may not have it right, but within each and every activist there is something precious, something beautiful, and through unity I hope that they can unlock it. I don't really see myself making compromises with capitalism any more. I don't see it as a future that I want to live in. I may not be able to come anywhere near to achieving what I want to see in the world, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to try. I'm not making generalisations, I'm thinking very specifically about all that is wrong with the world, and what I want to do to try and change it....

 

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/549/ww549.pdf

This atricle epitomises all that is wrong with the movement today, all that it is lacking, and all that it could be were we only to be able to end sectarianism....

 

So you want all companies to be removed and every single thing controlled by government? If you can name me one single communist state that has done well for its people then I might listen to your argument.

 

I can't see anywhere that he has said that. Why do people always assume that the only way to deal with capitalism is to hand everything over to state control? There are other far more libertarian ways.

 

I've never once argued for a communist state. Certain ideas of Marx and communism I agree with, but by no means do I believe that we should develop these ideas into a purely communist state. There's a lot contained within anarchist and environmentalist ideas that has a great deal of merit. As I've stated, I don't know what should come next. I have ideas, but I don't know what perfection would be. Does anyone? The whole idea of unity amongst different groups within the anti-capitalist movement is not simply to advance to the goal of toppling capitalism, but so that we may have a secular, democratic, pluralist movement in which together we may be able to find a better future....

 

History shows that you cannot force people to do something. With some enforceable rules, the fair market system is poor peoples best bet for getting better off. The problem is the tariffs and quotas, and trade restrictions we impose on the smaller nations, not free enterprise.


It may not be pretty, but I can see no better system than a true, fair, open market system. It just never seems to materialize. The big guns make unfair rules, and the little guy bites the bullet.

 

Time for the little guy to spit the bullet out and make some new rules then.

 

agreed, I am intrigued by the 13 month calendar movement to unite us...


http://www.13moon.com/


http://www.lawoftime.org/

 

Interesting stuff, I'll read some more later but it does come across as a little 'cultish'

 

I quite agree. The free market is the fairest way for all concerned as it provides freedom. Problems only arise when the free market is warped, either through tariffs and quotas or state provided monopolies.

 

The 13 month lunar calendar is totally non ethnic and ancient, I think it is a good rallying point.

 

I agree, in the short to medium term we do need a fairer regulated system of capitalism to help re-address the inbalance of the present system. But I don't see myself setting for this as a compromise. I won't deny the merits of reformism, but I still think we need to get rid of capitalism... and replace it with something nicer....

 

No, no, no, no no. The so called regulation of capitalism is what imposes the quotas and tariffs that make the free market unfair.

Let the market handle itself and ban government from sticking its nose in (as they always do things for political motives) and you'll have a decent system. Not perfect but decent.

As for having something nicer, it will never happen. People by their very nature want to better themselves. Give people the freedom to do that and you'll have a decent society. Won't be nice for all but then this was never a realistic goal as long as humans are made the way they are.

 

depending who regulates it

Are you suggesting people rule their own lives? That would be bordering on anarchy

The problem you seem to have is that you seem to continually associate a non-capitalist system with soviet style communism. Of course people will always want to better themselves, however at the moment some people have the ability to better themselves more than others. If you take away the huge profits that some companies make at the expense of their workforce/the environment etc a better standard of living would be available to more people.

For example; take the motor industry ... lets say £8000 to £30000 for a new vehicle. After the cost of raw materials ... How much of the price goes into the pockets of the one's actually making/designing that vehicle and how much goes into the pockets of the bosses who don't put in any more effort than the workers? Yes they may work hard, but so do the people on the factory floor. Re-organise the company and remove the 'bosses' and the vehicle will become more affordable, more people will be able to enjoy having one and the workers who built it will be happier knowing that their efforts are being rewarded properly. Everyone is better off except for those guilty of exploitation. They are the only one's who really have anything to fear.

OK there is more to the logistics than just this, the system has to be implemented somehow and the "rulers" need to be removed, but it does work. You can see examples of this all over the place.

Take a look at the "Open source" software movement. Thousands of developers all working for free, making applications because they enjoy doing it. try wikipedia an online encyclopedia built for free by the same movement, there are no leaders involved here, just a group of people doing stuff together for the betterment of each other without a boss staring over their shoulders. It is the best in human nature at work.

I'm sure there are many other examples too. Human nature is at its best when it isn't forced into exploitation, and exploitation doesn't have to just be a sweat shop in downtown Bangkok or Mumbai, it can be in your own backyard.

It is capitalism that brings the worst out in us.

 

Soviet style communism didn't start off as Soviet style communism, it started out as an attempt to bring about a liberal social reviolution which would bring, prosperity and freedom to all. It degenerated due to mistakes made by the Bolshivik party. For example the bloody crushing of the Krondstad naval base rebellion by the Red Army led by Trotsky. There were other mistakes as well such as enforced requisistion of grain which led to mass famine. Then there was the Red Terror in which atrocities were committed during the civil war with the White Army. More over their biggest mistake was to adopt a regime of democratic centralism instead of more open democracy within the party which eventually led to totalitarianism.

The left need to learn from their mistakes, which unfortunatly they don't seem to have. Most left groups for example still rever Trotsky as a hero, despite the fact that he was guilty of some appalling atrocities. And most left groups still use the system of democratic centralism in their internal structures.

Of all the left groups the most correct in their ideas of how to conduct a change to a libertarian society are the Socialist Party of Great Britain part of the International Socialist Movement who run their party on truely democratic lines where no members has more authority than any of the others. They are similar to many anarchist groups in their outlook and philosophy.

 

I'm not sure what else there is. You have a free market where anyone can produce things and sell them in the market place or you have a state controlled market place with one supplier. If I'm being blonde forgive me and fill me in on the alternative.

I'm no expert on the motor industry but I'd suggest that its a bit more complex than a fat cat scenario. I'm sure there is a degree of wastage however, although I would say that there is considerably more in the public sector because there isn't the competition for services to drive prices down.

I agree 100% with this. I don't think capitalism is a perfect system but I like the idea that for the many products I use each day/week/month.. they are supplied by a very wide range of companies so the power is spread far and wide. This is as close as we can get to a ruler I think because the power to rule our lives isn't as concentrated as it would be in the case of a government.

Again, I agree 100% with the power of these movements and the possibilities of a system that is constructed from the bottom up in this manner.

It would seem from this discussion (at least in my mind) that capitalism is ok but if a company or industry develops too much power or too large a market share then problems can arise.

So the issue would seem to be how to encourage companies to form and grow whilst not allowing them to get too big and blocking new companies from forming and free market competition from developing.

 

That's the very definition of exploitation. Taking advantage of people's depseration.

 

Exploitation and internal competition exists in the public sector too. For example, student nurses are brought in from overseas to work for the NHS because they are cheaper than British nurses. Also, post privatisation, most public service bodies are now forced to tender there services out to private companies, hence private dustcarts, private prison security firms and private taxis doing ambulance runs.

The waste as a result of this is huge, but only because it is wasted on making businessmen rich. I spent some time driving a cab for a firm that had a contract with the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, they were spending £10,000 a week (usually much more) on cabs for people just because they were no longer being funded to replace their own fleet of vehicles.

Out of every job that I did the cab firm would get 40% and I would get the remaining 60%. My take home wages at that time were about £350 a week for working a 12 hour day. We had about 100 daytime drivers in total and about 50 night drivers (obviously LBTH wasn't their only income)

It doesn't take that long to do the maths on how much our bosses were earning out of LBTH social services

 

Just playing devils advocate but do we have any figures on what a multinational pays in relation to the average wage of their host country? If they pay less than the average wage then yes, kick them hard for exploitation, but if they pay the same as native companies can this remain the case?

I'm always sceptical of government spending because, unlike companies, they don't have to generate money through profits. If they want to spend more they simply tax people more and we're forced to hand over what they demand. I can't see how this can do anything but inflate prices both for the public sector, and of course to the private companies that service them (after all they know that they've got the tax payer by the short and curlies).

 

Of course it bloody can. If the average wage in a country is a poverty level wage, that doesn't justify a multinational exploiting that situation in order to provide us with cheap goods.