Get Rid Of Capitalism And Replace It With Something Nicer!

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32649


ahem

 

People can be allies if they want to be. Anarchists don't want government and Marxists want centralised government, at what stage does a small cooperative become a government? Maybe it all boils down to the role of government, organising bodies needs to serve and not govern. Everything needs to be managed somehow, the railways, hospitals, emergency services will all need to achieve some form of order ... even without the constraints of capitalism or government they will still need widespread organisation.

Just a concept here ... is there another way? OK there's probably holes in this, but maybe something like a system where a new, servile 'government' exists solely to serve rather than govern, with the freedom to exist away from this and self 'govern' for those who don't want to be part of it? Nobody forcing anyone to become centralised or managed, everyone entitled to their own ideas but no restrictions imposed on anyone who chooses to opt out. Freeedom to grow as you see fit without the oppression of the wealthy classes.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We have to go beyond this, it has to end. Or else capitalism will end us. There's no future without unity. We need to learn to walk before we can run. There's very little point in bickering over our own ideological interests in how to run things after capitalism, because all that does is lets us forget who the real enemy is. If we remain divided capitalism will never fall. United, one day, there's hope. And when it does, then the debate can come as to what should come next....

 

Hmmmm. Agreeing with SelfControl is turning into a bit of a bad habit, but I do believe he's hit the nail on the head here.

It's a mistake to see capitalism as a political system. It isn't. It's an expression of human nature. That's why every other political system that's ever had a foothold on this planet has essentially followed a similar model - concentrating the wealth and the power at the top.

Revolution is pointless. Overthrowing capitalism won't change fucking anything. We didn't arrive at capitalism out of nowhere. The monkies didn't descend from the trees and start a free market out of political ideology. Capitalism developed because it's in the nature of people to take power, and it's in the nature of people to allow people to take power if they're sufficiently compensated or scared.

Show me one realistic model for overthrowing and replacing capitalism. What're you going to replace it with? Workers bloody cooperatives? Won't make the slightest bit of difference, because it'll still effectively be a competitive economic model with people seeking to increase their share of the cake.

You don't need revolution. You need evolution. Only through evolving as a species can anything really change. I think this is starting to happen, but we're a long way from any significant shift. Just walk into your nearest town, loom around you, and count how many people you can see who've ever even thought about life outside the box.

Evolution is what we need. It will happen. It can't be rushed. The only question that remains is whether that evolution can be relatively painless or whether the existing system need to collapse first. If the system does collapse, Mad Max is gonna look tame by comparison.

 

You mention the exploitation of the poor. This is a problem both in the public and private sector.

I would say its probably a minority in the private sector and everyone has a choice. If you don't agree with sweatshops then don't shop at stores that use them.

In my eyes you get far more choice in capitalism, because you don't have to buy things, than you do in government because you only get choice every four years.

I'd rather have power dissipated across hundreds of companies than have it centralised in the hands of one government.

 

Ah, political activism reduced to shopping! I can see our leaders quaking in their boots.

 

It is essentially the same as a vote though isn't it? If you buy something you're saying you like their products. If you vote for a government you're saying you like their policies. With one you get a 'vote' whenever you want, with the other you get a vote every four years.

 

Firstly, it's nothing like a vote. Private companies exist to make money. Governments (in theory) exist to server the people.

Secondly, you assume that there's a choice. If you don't like the way capitalism works as a whole, it's pretty hard to consume your way out of it. Ever try buying a carton of milk that doesn't come in a disposable container? How do I use my alleged consumer power to purchase products that aren't environmentally destructive when such products don't exist? Your model assumes that there'll be sufficient demand for companies to respond and suppyl an alternative. In reality, companies shape demand.

Thirdly, the alternative in this instance is note voting, it's activism. So your analogy is irrelevant.

 

im going to be unpopular for saying this, but i don't think its possible.... i think that capitalism at its basic is just greed and this greed is inherent to everyone. the ego is the one thing that strives within us and unless everyone extinguishes their ego then we will just be going round in circles like we have always been. i don't believe there is a positive end to this, i think we will end up destroying ourselves as the human race..but you know...thats ok, the world will survive it has done before...

sorry for being a little incoherent...too much to say and too little time.
namaste
x x x

 

You're very naive if you think governments exist to serve the people. Government is staffed by people, regular human beings, just like those that work in the private sector. They're not there for altruistic motives, they're there to earn a wage to do what they want in life.

What happens if these people do a bad job? What exactly is a bad job in the public sector? There is no competition so inevitably standards drop, whilst investment rises.

This will never be changed, whether your milk is provided by companies or governments.

I'm not saying that capitalsim is perfect because no system with humans involved will ever be perfect, purely because we are so complicated.

What I'm saying is that I'd rather have an imperfect system that offers some choice than an imperfect system that offers very little choice.

 

LOL, yeah, almost as naive as you if you think that capitalism can save the world

However, I'll assume that you just didn't read my post properly, or else you'd have noticed the bit where I said "in theory".

I think neither capitalism nor democracy offers much choice. I think proportional representation could go a long way towards improving things, but you're still just polishing a turd. But capitalism doesn't offer any answers either. In fact, it's largely the free market that's constrained the hands of governments. Capitalism may offer you the illusion of choice, but it is only an illusion.

 

The main problem with democracy is the same as the problem with capitalism: it's shit, but it's better than anything anyone else can come up with.

Democracy devolves power and the impression of control to voters who, for the most part, you would not trust to tie their own shoelaces, let alone run a country. If the government you've elected fuck up, it can ultimately claim that it was elected by the people.

The alternative would be somewhere like Cuba, which has an essentially benevolent and liberal unelected dictator. But for every country that has one of those, there's about fifty that are ruled by tyrannical bastards who have little/no interest in the people.

Until we have the technology to build a computer, which will arbitrate laws unselfishly and judge each situation individually rather than based on policy, democracy is the best we're likely to get.

Similarly, capitalism may not be perfect, but anti-capitalists seem to assume that capitalism makes people evil, whereas in my view it is the other way round; people make capitalism evil. The idea that, in the absence of the corrupting influence of money, we would all be egalitarian and peace loving is sadly not rooted in human nature. Money is actually a great leveller; without it, people would have to fight with force to steal from each other, whereas anyone can make money.

 

I don't buy their products, and that's a choice that I make. But I'm not under any illusions that it'll make a blind bit of difference. I have that choice, the workers in the sweatshops don't. I can understand people who don't want to see capitalism gone, or do but don't think that it can be replaced etc. It's just a belief I've come to over the last few weeks. Nomy hit the nail on the head for me when she said that our destructive ways within the capitalist system threaten the extinction of our species. And if that happens, the world will go on, just without us. We are, afterall, not that important. I agree. But it's still a stark view, and I have enough optomism with in me to feel that we can prevent this from happening. Capitalism is an extention of human greed as a system of exploitation, but Marx's historical materialist approach to the evolution of the capitalist system in "The German Ideology" seems to me to be very close to the truth. His only failing was using it to predict exactly how capitalism would fall and what it would be replaced with. This isn't certain, although I know that for me, I want to try. And where do you get if you don't try? Even if all it ammounts to through our collective efforts is helping that evolution, that's no bad thing. I accept reformism, I think it's a positive step. But for me, the ultimate solution remains the destruction of the capitalist system. I'm not even going into how, or when or what we should replace it with, at least not yet. First I really am committed to finding some common threads of unity amongst those opposed to capitalism....

 

Sorry, that post is insane. I run a company so I guess I'm part of the capitalist system. Am I personally harming society by my actions? Get real. There are thousands, if not millions of companies around the world, just like mine, who do alot of good and contribute to society.

You have some bad apples of course you do and the system isn't perfect but then no system ever will be perfect. There will always be those that have, and those that havn't. Its a fact of life. The way we're made is that we try and do the best for ourselves, and everyone here is the same. The difference is that everyone has different goals. To some it's economic, to some it's academic, others prefer power, others strive for spiritual enlightenment. Whatever your bag we all strive to achieve that. If you didn't get a kick out of what you do you wouldn't do it.

True freedom would allow each and every person to live their lives how they wanted, not how you want or how I want but how they want. Now I don't believe our current democracy allows us that right. Many will say that capitalism doesn't either but the difference is that one offers widespread choice, the other doesn't.

You say about your individual purchasing power not amounting to much and you're right. But then this extends to anything in life. Individually we are small but if enough people think like you then things change. With capitalism if enough people think in a certain way then things change because companies go where the money is and money follows the people.

I don't feel like I can really say the same about governments.

 

It's only insane because you disagree with it. Viewpoints are subjective, and so are the stands we make. Personally I think third world exploitation is insane. There are a lot of people who disagree with that. Those are the people I don't want to see running our countries. Now I've expressed opposition to the capitalist system. I haven't elaborated on what I think should ideally replace it. The truth is, because I don't know. I'm constantly looking for a better way. If you think capitalism is the best we can get, I respect that, but disagree. It's not as though I'm advocating sending you to Siberia or anything....

 

That would all depend on the way you treated your workforce, what the company did, your competitive practices and other factors such as environment.

 

Sorry, insane was an over zealous word. My point was though that there is alot more to capitalism than the companies operating sweat shops overseas. There are thousands of companies that operate very successfully and positively benefit society.

I don't know a great deal about sweat shops but playing devils advocate I'd like to know how the pay offered by these companies compares to the national average in those countries. Maybe I'm being naive but surely if the workers in these places could get better paid work elsewhere they would do. Do you have any stats on this?

 

Exactly. My primary opposition is to the huge multinationals that are bleeding the world dry. Smaller, ethically run businesses that respect the environment, their workers and those in developing countries I don't really have much of a problem with....

 

Once again, that seems like a huge generalisation. If you're protesting against capitalism then you're protesting against every company that exists. Why not research the companies that don't meet your criteria and protest against them? Whilst you're at it do some research into governments that don't meet your critera and protest against them as well.

 

But capitalism is the cause. The mechanism that makes it possible is human greed, the general human ethic is that it is ok to make profits and compete (rather than cooperate to meet each others needs/desires) is what has to be stopped, then there will be more than enough for all of us.

This means a rethink of all our values, humanity needs to become more aware of the world situation, more selfless and more prepared to make sacrifices.

I'm willing to rethink my own values, change myself and work on becoming a more compassionate human being, many other people are also willing ...

Many more still need to be educated or become willing to get involved and that is in our hands. There is no point in preaching to the converted, and simply promoting stuff runs the danger of getting ignored. We also need the power of example.

The people who want this to happen need to break their own divisions and start reaching out collectively. A movement needs to be born that challenges what is accepted and practises what it preaches. Then it will stand a chance of growing.