Gay Cure MERGED

But Arguable Semantics is the exact very reason you can 'ask the question' with any venear of 'confidence' in the first place.

YOU are the one who can use 'word games' and play definition to deny or dodge any way you want.

You can say:
'Well.. they mean those who ALREADY have decided they are gay"
Or
"Support groups for gay teens dont actually support or encourage the ones who are not gay."

Thats why you are the one relying on the Semantic Argument and thats exactly why their 'Mission statements' are so ambiguous and even the term 'Homosexual' or 'Gay' can mean.. almost anything.

Thats why you need me to tell you what it means (well you already know Im right) when I say that a man entering a gay org or subculture and saying he now want to be gay - WILL be accepted for this and encouraged to do exactly that.

Yet, you want to think it any different when a man walks into an Exodus and (just turn it around) says he wants to be straight now?
Why shouldnt he be encouraged to 'be himself' and do what he wants too?

If you want to tell me otherwise then I suggest YOU start giving me some reason to believe otherwise?

 

If a guy with (exclusively) straight feelings came into my gay organisation and said he wanted to be(come) gay, I/we would find it just as shocking as a gay guy wanting to become straight.
Don't make it sound as if "us gays" want to recruit people to become gay. If you are gay, we'll help you accept it (if you have problems accepting it), if you aren't gay we'll like you just the same and treat you with the same respect.

 

It really appears that alot of homophobes are deathly afraid that contact with gay people could turn them gay. They either think that or else they are waging a major inner conflict between denouncing gays, and the curiosity to try and see what its all about. I would gladly visit any gay organization without a second thought.
And I doubt even the best public promoter of how great it is to be gay really tried to sell me on the idea of being gay, that it would work.
We are what we are.
What I am, I am. Sitting Bull.

 

First of all Erasmus70, you need to start separating all of us. There are several people responding to your posts and you are lumping us all together as if we are one person. You are refering to us all as one YOU, listing all of our quotes together and saying we are contradicting ourselves. Well maybe we are contradicting each other because we are DIFFERENT people.

Secondly, I am not using any internet culture definition of fundamentalist. I am using the actual definition. You know, the REAL one. I never said that it applied to all christians. In fact, I only said it applied to 2 organizations. And I never accused YOU of being one of them. Since you defend them so vehemently, why don't you tell us what it is that makes them NOT fundamentalist. That might be a good start.

Also, the situations that you are listing are completely different. 1) A man decides he wants to try to be straight because society has convinced him that the way he feels is wrong, everyone harasses him, his family has disowned him, and he shows up at Exodus because he thinks maybe he can change himself to please others. 2) A man has known that he is gay since he was 14. He's been in the closet for 10 years. He decides it is time to come out to his family and friends. He seeks out an organization for support and advice to help him through this tough time.

Do you see the difference here?? That is why you can't compare the two!! These so-called "gay-orgs" you are referring to are not there to try to TURN people gay. They are there to support you in coming out to people. Exodus and New Direction are about changing people from one to the other once they have lost all hope because society has convinced them that something in them is evil or wrong.

As far as ambigious mission statements, what are you even talking about? They don't leave the term gay open to interpretation. Maybe you think the word can have multiple meanings, but that doesn't mean their mission statement implies that.

 

So you're shifting the burden of proof onto me, on the grounds that you already backed up your claim amply with the words "you already know I'm right"?

Fuck you kiddo.

 

Aha.. but see how its semantics anyway that allows you two guys to turn it around on my position?
Now we say that 'encourage' and 'support' mean something different when its for the gay who wants to be gay.
(and even that means something we want)

When its the other way around and its a gay wanting to be straight then its just as easy for you to change the meanings around to mean something else too.

Im cutting through all that by giving the realistic events as they happen.
Again: guy walks into gay org and says he has been living a hetero life and knows he wants to be gay now = support given.
guy walks into Exodus and says he has been living a gay life and knows he wants to be straight now = support given.

The only reason a 'nefarious' or 'suspicious' spin is being put on the latter example is because its not what you like or want to see.
Not because its different.

 

I'll go through this one more time.

Exodus, as I understand it, encourages people to cease homosexual activity and stick to heterosexual activity.
LGBT organisations, as I understand it, encourage people to experiment with homosexuality if they feel the need.

Am I wrong? Does Exodus only seek to encourage experimentation with heterosexuality?

 

Erastmus70 stated:
“Again: guy walks into gay org and says he has been living a hetero life and knows he wants to be gay now = support given.
guy walks into Exodus and says he has been living a gay life and knows he wants to be straight now = support given.”

If that was the only basis of comparison, one might agree with you. However, Exodus caries a lot more baggage than just thinking being Hetro is the way to be. They also have a heavy religious agenda.
Their web site describes themselves as "A nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ, challenging those who uphold homosexuality as a valid orientation." That is one hell of a lot more than a Hetro support group. They have a commitment to a religious subset and they take a stand against being Gay as a valid orientation. That is a different trip from any gay origination that I have ever read about or known members of. Every gay activist that I have known in a lot of years in the movement, has without exception, once they found out that I was Hetro, refrained from making any serious comment about how I should change my lifestyle. I do not know any of my Gay or Lesbian friends who have had that experience when they tell people their orientation. They all have had to deal with fools who want them "to change their ways". That is one huge difference between Gay groups and folks like Exodus

 

This is not what happens though. Do you really think there is some large number of straight people pretending to be gay and then seeking support as coming out as the heterosexual people that they are and they are the people going to Exodus and New Direction? If you really believe that, you're sadly mistaken. The people that seek out the help of these organizations are homosexual people. They have somewhere along the line been convinced that homosexuality is wrong, evil, unacceptable, etc. So they decide that they will go to this religious anti-gay support group and try to transform themselves into good little straight people like they are "supposed" to be. On the other hand, support organizations for homosexual people are not for straight people who want to transform themselves into gay people. They are for gay people who want support in sharing it with others. I really don't understand what is so hard to grasp about that. I think that perhaps you're just too stubborn to admit they are completely different scenarios, for the sake of your argument.

 

Whoa whoa.. again notice YOUR quirky way of using the wording and definitions when it comes to a member joining Exodus.
You all of a sudden have them as someone 'convinced that' and they are 'supposed' and all these new ways of putting it.

When its a guy who wants to be gay you see it as 'his own choice' and without a doubt its often called 'honest' and even 'courageous acceptance' of what 'they know they are' etc.

When the same guy decides he want to be straight (and if Exodus then he is deciding to be in a Christian based org).. but now it cant be 'honest' or 'sincere' and it must be the homosexual is 'weak' or 'influenced' and we saw before words like 'forced' or 'shamed'.
Whatever the words - the homosexual is now being 'made' or worked and his decision is now somehow suspect.

Like I say - the only reason the homosexual is praised one way - but suspected the other is simply because you dont like the other way.

Why dont we use those terms for the homosexual who wants to be gay and 'come out'?
Do you say that 'somewhere along the line he was convinced he is 'supposed' to be gay and being made to 'transform into a good little gay?
No.
You use positive wording instead.
Is a Gay Support Org 'Anti-heterosexual'?

Seriously, my point is made all the more - the more you DO remove the semantics and shifty word definitions.
There is a double standard here.

IF Im to believe a Peer Counsellor from Exodus - they make it a point to send the unsure or insincere clients home.
If they think someone is attending for reasons of 'being pressured' or is simply not commited in their own mind - they encourage them to come back later.
AA and most of these self-help type Orgs do that.
Its the rule.

 

'Every gay activist that I have known in a lot of years in the movement, has without exception, once they found out that I was Hetro, refrained from making any serious comment about how I should change my lifestyle.' HippyPaul
Bingo!
That is the bullseye. Erasmus70, for example, would be someone I would like to hear explain why some heteros feel they have the right or even worse the duty to try to make gays 'see the error of their ways'. As you said, this is not the case with gays, they don't do this. It is a critical and definitive ethical difference. It is not respectful, but instead is intolerant and intrusive to try to get others to change over to ones one desired way of seeing things. The outcome of such tactics is more likely to cause misery and resistance than compliance. You cannot change another person. You may, if you really feel it is necessary, state ONE TIME what you find disagreeable, and then the other person knows your wishes and can choose to do as you suggest, or not. If not, thats it. Any revisiting of the subject is just nagging, and coercion. It does no good.
I am glad that the gays I know don't spend one second of our time together explaining to me all the reasons it is wrong for me to be hetero. And I treat them with the same acceptance, and respect.
Hippypaul is our winner. This thread may now be officially abandoned. It has been very clearly answered. Now on to other things.......

 

Blackie.. I suggest one more thing before you close your mind to the issue.
Go test HippyPauls 'Bingo' theory to see how lock-solid it is.
Go downtown Vancouver to one of the better Gay Nightclubs.
Hang out for a night.. take in a party afterwards maybe.

Do you think someone is going to make you have gay sex - no.
Thats not the point.
However if you tell them you are straight but are willing to try it once.....

Then come back and tell me how it went.

 

Do you see any difference between encouraging someone to experiment with homosexuality and telling them that they should become exclusively homosexual?

Just a simple answer: yes or no.

 

See again, its you who is trying to pour meaning, choose meaning and hold a definition in your own mind which I cant know (until I answer a certain way - then bammo, gotcha!)

There is a difference if I think I know what you are saying at face value.

So if I say 'Yes'.
Then
What are you suggesting?

 

What is the point you are trying to make? I'm trying to figure out what this thread is about, and basically, I can't make heads or tails of it.
Just tell us what you think about homosexuals, about Exodus, about gay organisations etc.

 

There is no need to be confused Lietchi.
I am telling you what I think about these things.
As we speak.

This IS what the conversation is about.

 

Come on. There has been a lot of talk, but very few straight answers...

 

If someone in a gay bar says he is straight and is willing to try gay sex once, many gay men are going to interpret that as flirting or an expression of interest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of these men even doubted that the guy was all that gay to begin with.

Think of it this way: if a lesbian were to go to a straight bar in Vancouver and say that she is a lesbian and was willing to try straight sex once, what sort of response would you expect her to get?

 

whats that got to do with anything?

i think what erasmus is trying to get someone to say is:

'if you want support to 'become' gay then we are here for you/ if you want support to 'become' straigth, then you should realise you are simply being weak, you know you're really gay and will always be, so stay that way!'

so that he can say 'aha! i told you i was right!' -which he's been saying anyway....

....unfortunately for him i dont think thats what any of us have actually ment by our posts...

and i agree with liechi:
Erasmus, you havent actually given us any straigth opinions of your own, you've simply been asking rhetorical questions about other people's posts, picking out details of language use and tone......
why dont you stop trying to dissect our posts and answer some of the questions instead?

i DO see your point: language is very important, so many connotations to each word make them loaded with meaning and their proper use is therefore important..... but isnt the 'precise definition' of words and concepts(essentialism is in the air.....) an entirely different debate.

 

I'd just like to know what you actually believe. I'm want to clarify your stance on this matter because I feel that, given the arguments you've been putting forward, it would be helpful to know. How you answer this question would effect how I interpret what you've said up until now.

If you think I am trying to trap you, please feel at liberty not to divulge the answer, but if you don't I will take it to mean that you either don't have an answer, or that you're avoiding it in order to save face. If you're censoring your posts for that reason... I'd quit while you're behind.

Once again: Is there a difference between encouraging someone to experiment with homosexuality and encouraging them to give up heterosexuality: yes or no?