Gay babies? Live or die?

I wouldn't care...I also don't really care if anyone else cares hence the post without reading anything other than the OP

 

Maybe it would be a good thing if they could tell at such an early age that the child is gay, it would prepare the parents as well as the child for the future, prevent that awkward coming out time, and give the parents allot of time to accept it.Also I think some parents do know in the back of their minds that their child is gay, but just don't want to face it. If it happened to me and I was offered a termination, I would definitely refuse.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

 

I'd keep my child, NO MATTER WHAT the doctors said about it before birth.

Whether they said it would live only a week, its sexual orientation or was going to be born with 16 arms... that is my child...

To invisiblesoul and others in her position...

Don't wish you weren't here because you are 'different'... look around at what 'normal' is and ask yourself if you would really rather be that....

It is the 'normal' people who have made the world to be a place where you feel as you do.

They are not to be envied or desired as the 'way to be'...

Be who you are, and be proud of it... fuck anyone who doesn't like it (not fucking in the good sense of course)...

As for those people who have differing opinions depending on glbt issues depending on if its other people's kids or your own... how can you be so openly hypocritical and hateful that you would look down on your own flesh and blood for something you would accept in a stranger? That is FUCKED....

My daughter is just getting to the age when these issues regarding sexuality are going to be ones that she has to deal with personally, and regardless of what path she choose, or the manner she chooses to walk it in, she will remain my daughter, and have all the love and support she ever wants.

On the matter of whether there is 'progression' I guess that depends on how you measure it...From the time such things were being written down, there have been glbt people... Most likely, you would find that it started pretty much with the dawn of mankind itself...

Some cultures have accepted the differences, in fact, some even elevated those that were 'different' as being closer to the creator and it was an honor to count them among your family.

At this time (the last 100 years or so) in history, we are likely one of the most intolerant people there have ever been, although it has shown improvement in the last few decades...

 

I can't help how I feel. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ''normal'', it's society's attitude to people who are not ''normal'' which is the problem.

No, it isn't. It's bigoted, narrow minded people who have helped make me feel the way I do. I do not desire to be like that at all. But I do have a natural desire to be in a normal female body, and to just be able to live a normal life as a female. It's just my natural instinct to feel that way. And I would feel like that, even if there was no prejudice towards people like me at all. Society's attitude just makes it that much harder to live with, that's all.

How can I be proud of something I had no choice in? I am this way because of a cruel twist of fate, and very bad decision making on the part of doctors when I was born. I did not and would not have chosen the life I have, so I cannot be proud of it. You should only be ''proud'' of personal achievements, being what I am isn't an achievement. The only thing that ignorant and hateful people do, is make life a much more daunting prospect. But I cannot be proud of my condition seeing as I never chose it. And my desire to have a normal life as a female, and in a proper female body, came long before I was fully aware of the ignorance and bigotry that a lot of society directs at someone like me. I am not ashamed of who I am, but I am not proud of it either. And never could be.

 

Being proud about who you are, has nothing to do with your body. It has to do with where you are in life...

Either you are happy where you are, or you should make a change, either way, you should be proud of the decisions you made to get where you are, or be proud that you are working your way towards making yourself be happy.

The only other alternative is to spend the rest of your life miserable... but make no mistake, that is a choice only you can make.

"What' you are, is what you choose to be... your body, (as you know better then anyone), has little to do with it. It is only the container you are in, not the center of your being....

Bigoted, narrow minded people are the ones in the majority and the ones in control... They are the 'normal'...

Having a desire to be in a 'normal female body' isn't what I was talking about... as I said, the body is just the container. The fact that you wish your container matched your mind, isn't odd or strange, but it will never change WHO you are.

 

But I can't really be who I really feel I am, and that is the problem. I dont pretend to be someone Im not, and I never have. But society, and the way official organisations work, makes it impossible for me to not be constantly aware of the fact that I'm different. I am not happy where I am, and really, there isn't a whole lot I can do to change that. I have never been happy, and most likely never will. And I will say that is mainly because of society. If I could be treated just the same as any other female out there, I could be happy, but that will never be the case, so I probably never will be.

Believe me, I have never chosen to be miserable, and wish I could be happy. But, for me to ever be truly happy, I would have to be 1: happy in my body (which Im not), and 2: be able to live my life in the same way that any other female can. (which I can't) Both of those things I have no control over, so saying it is ''my choice'' is being a bit naive I think. ''What'' I am, is what I am. And that is just the way I am. I do not ''choose'' to be that way, that is just who I am. Your body has very much to do with it, when most of the negative aspects of my life are due to that. NOTHING about me is what I choose to be. My personality is what it is, and did not choose that, and neither will I change it for anyone.

When your life is made that much harder, and you feel you can't live the life you want because of the container you are in, and society's attitude towards your container's contradiction of your inner self, then it becomes very much the centre of your being. Should it be? Probably not. But in the society we live in, I made very self conctious of the fact that my life will never be how I truly want it to be, because of society's attitude towards people who's inner self is in complete contrast to their outer self. I think I will always be miserable, as I feel that certain aspects of life that I desire, and that most others can get very easily, and that they take for granted, will always remain closed off to me.

But I don't want to change WHO I am. Yes, I would change my container in an instant to match my mind if I could. But I don't think I would change my core personality, or the essensce of my inner self. Sadly though, in relation to gender, your container dictates how you will be seen, and treated by the majority in society. And if your gender and inner self doesn't match your container, it makes it extremely difficult to live exactly the way you want to, as most will treat you a certain way because of the container you are in.

 

You are letting what other people think of you, form the basis of your self-opinion...

THAT is how you end up being miserable for life...

As for the being naive... no, you missed the point of what I said...

I wasn't saying, the body you are in and the way people treat you was your choice. I was saying how you let that effect you IS.

When you can't change something, then you find a way to live with it as happily as possible. Stay away from the people who judge you in ways that bothers you, their life is their problem, what they think is their problem, how they treat you, is also their problem... until you LET it become yours...

That was the choice I was referring to.

 

These platitudes, while seemingly inspiring for someone to make themselves happy and bright in the face of adversity, may seem simplistic hollow for someone with a peculiar lifetime of being at odds with their own body and culture that does not accept them as what they truly are.

I too can imagine what that would be like, but I have not experienced it, so it is just a supposition.

I would trust the first-hand account of someone who has lived the life, and accept their conclusions over an inspirational pep-talk.

 

I find it highly odd coming from you of all people to hear this...

You don't think our own happiness (or lack of it) is an internal thing that we either allow or not allow to happen?

It doesn't matter what problems a person faces, their happiness is their own. Most people never learn this and some who do, forget it on occasion.

 

I skimmed this whole thread to possibly find out what QueerPoet is fighting Odon on and I still don't understand. I'm confused and I need it resolved so I don't keep thinking about it!

 

Shale is correct. Intersex people brought up as the wrong gender, and people who feel trapped in the wrong body have to face huge problems that most of general society do not have to face. And it is a unique issue that if you havent lived, you can really have no idea of just how horrible, and degrading a life it can be. Have you any idea how humiliating it is or how hard it is, just to get your name and gender title changed with official organisations? Or knowing that the vast majority of the opposite sex would see you as completely hideous, or just a total joke, and not want to have anything romantically to do with you? You have the same needs, drives and desires and everyone else in the gender you identify with, but having those needs met is extremely difficult or impossible.

Feeling trapped in the wrong body, and knowing it is totally wrong, is bad enough. That in itself is a terrible thing to have to deal with. The fact of the matter is, is that the vast majority in society will not treat you as your true gender if they know about your condition. Most will treat you with scorn, and ridicule, and even most of the accepting ones will still not see you completely as the gender you are. You will always be ''intersex'' or ''transsexual'' over your gender. They may accept your condition, but treating you as an equal and total member of the gender you identify as? Only a very tiny minority of even the accepting ones will do that. The very best you can hope for in most situations, is that people will not hate you, and can be friends with you. But being seen simply as your gender, with no degrading sub-labels attatched is too much to expect in most cases.

The best way of describing how it feels, is you feel dehumanized. Your true identity is being ignored, and you'll very rarely if ever, be seen completely the way you see yourself. Your gender, and in particular how that is viewed by others affects EVERY aspect of your life, right down to the smallest detail. For me, even the most simplest of things are made very difficult due to this, and I have never been able to form even the most basic relationships with people. The way I see it, if I wont be seen and treated simply as female, then I have no wish to be around anyone. I think that's why I chose the name 'invisible soul' as my username here. I feel like a nothing a lot of the time, like I may as well not exist. My complete inner self, will never be totally accepted or seen as the real me by the vast majority in society, if they knew about my condition, and that is something which hurts inside like you wouldnt believe. How can I be happy, or content in a world where my true self and gender will not be completely accepted by a huge proportion of the population?

 

I thought the question was a Joke (both stupid and funny) he didn't.
I answered the question anyway.
I think he thought I was giving him a hard time over the question.
This and that happened.
He seemed to think I'd altered my stance.
I wanted to know where and when I had.
I'm still waiting.

It ended up being a good thread...what do I know *shrugs shoulders*

 

You can't be, because you have decided that you won't let yourself be.

Do I know what it's like to be trapped in the wrong gender body, of course not, which was why I never said, I know how you feel about this...

I also don't know what it's like to be trapped in a paralyzed body, but I do know that some people who are paralyzed still live a happy life... Because they chose to accept what they couldn't change and found something that made them happy in the real world, instead of focusing on their problems..

I also don't know what it's like to be gay, black, mexican, blind or deaf... But I can point you to people who are, who have CHOSEN to find something in life to make themselves happy in spite of how society views them.

I do however, know exactly what it is like to have a disability and have people judge you on it, and I do know exactly how you get past that, and that is by fixing what you can, and accepting what you can't and choosing to find things that make you happy. But most importantly, realizing that other people opinions don't matter a single bit, unless you let them.

Just because a person hasn't experienced a specific issue personally, does not mean that they don't have any input into these conversations.

And I don't think this is something that Invisible Soul is unaware of, or you would have chosen to post only on boards that were for intersex people.

Instead, you chose to post here, in an open forum about it, for what I can only assume was to hear thoughts from a wide range of people, and not just those that share your issue.

 

That is far too simplistic a way of looking at it, it really is not that simple.

The one huge difference which you fail to grasp (with the possible exception of gay people) is that all those other groups of people are not seen as people who have chosen to be the way they are. Sure, some may face discrimination, but in general, those things are understood way more, as they are not seen as a choice on the person's part. I'm sure a person who is blind and deaf has it worse than me, and I can acknowledge that. But, people who fall foul of gender ''norms'' are discriminated against far more than any other group of people. Unlike racism, and prejudice against the disabled, bigotry towards people who dont fit in the narrow gender binary that most adhere to, is far more prevelant and common. In general society, it's like an acceptable prejudice to have. Whereas most would not see racism for example, as an unacceptable prejudice.

Ridiculing trans people is not seen as a bad thing in most people's eyes, and most people do it. And even most of those who dont ridicule you will not see you as the gender you see yourself as. At least not completely. I know there are prejudices against other groups of people. But I would definitely say that prejudice against those who fall foul of gender norms, is WAY more common, than any other type of prejudice. Racism today, is like fringe prejudice. Only a minority are that way. Whereas the vast majority of people are prejudiced in some way towards people who fall foul of gender norms. Its probably the last prejudice which is held by most people in society. And the only one which is seen as acceptable by society at large.

One thing I cant find, is happiness with other people. Seeing as anything less than complete acceptance of me being female, is not acceptable to me. Its very easy to say that other's opinions dont matter. But when the vast majority of society see you as a joke, or in a negative light, it is hard to just ingore that. If you're a strong person, you probably could. But Im not a strong person.

Well to be fair, when I first started posting on these boards, I was still in the dark about my intersex condition. Im not saying that people who havent experienced it cant have input in discussions about it. But I think Shale is right to listen to someone who has direct experience of the situation, over someone who hasn't. Just as a blind, or deaf person would be able to give a far more accurate description of how it feels being that way, than someone who doesnt know how it feels. I will say it feels good that it's being discussed. For many years this issue (intersex) has been almost unheard of by the general public, seeing as the medical profession has done it's best to try and hide it by operating on intersex babies. I find this better than just talking with other intersex people, it's interesting to see other's attitudes, even if they are negative. lol

 

Well, I hope you aren't referring to my posts as the negative ones.

Each person views their own circumstances as far worse then most others (although most will always be able to point to someone who is worse)... As in, I can easily sit here and say I would trade my issues for gender issues or pretty much anything, other then what I do have, because it has almost destroyed my life multiple times (and I don't mean screwed my life up, I mean my life almost ended) and I know how much pain I go through.

Because that is what I know... just like you know being trapped in the wrong body is something you would trade for almost anyone elses issues...

As for it not being as simple as you making a choice... it is.. everything in life comes down to very simple choices...

If someone around you brings more joy then stress you keep them around, if they cause more stress then joy, you kick them the fuck out of your life.

If where you live doesn't give you more joy then stress, move... if it does... stay...

If it something you can't change (ie: societies attitudes overnight), then you accept it and find a way to be happy in spite of it... Why? Because the other choice is to be unhappy, and why would anyone want to choose that?

And although it is really that simple, that doesn't mean it is easy. There will always be things that catch you off guard and throw the best laid plans awry... But it's like anything else you want in life... keep working at it...

As for the talking about it, we (as people) need to talk about a hell of a lot more 'real' things like this, and less about bullshit stuff like normally goes on...

 

Of course for the normal day-to-day life of a person who is not chronically ill, or under constant duress. In fact some ppl have appeared happy despite such horrid conditions.

But a person facing a grim life in a concentration camp with the prospect of death being the only release would be hard-pressed to be happy. My wife, as she was dying of a terminal wasting illness had moments of happiness, but often it was just pain control that was the goal. In fact, she often asked to end it and I regret that we could not let her go on her own terms. I am a proponent of euthanasia.

So, yeah, I find happiness in my life, even with the aches and pains and other reminders that my life has more history than future - but that is me - now. I would probably off myself if something really egregious occured in my life.

You cannot really know another's pain - it is often individual and beyond the platitudes that work for you.

 

dead wife eh....

guess I'm done in this convo... you win shale, everyone should look at their life and see just how fucking miserable it is and choose to be miserable...

 

Now you are being negative.

 

You used your dead wife as an arguing point....

Our conversation is done shale.