Fundie shithead uses tsunami as excuse to bash earth-centered faiths!

There are also those believers that do the unimaginable: for example the christians in Sri Lanka, which have been persecuted, some even tortured for their faith, now give medical and practical aid to the fellow countrymen who persecuted them. Now is that not love?

I sit here with my mouth opened to about some of the things said in these articles. You say "how can they take advantage of such suffering for their own purposes" but also, don't use this situation to get some chances of attacking christianity/christians.

As for the guilt question. Was it because of the sinfullnes of those people that this wave came? I think this answers:

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” - Luke 13:1-5

You could say as a reply to this bibletext "ah look, it says to repent, now you must agree with all the christians making converts overthere". Well, WWJD? Jesus ate with the tax collectors and prostitues, and showed compassion to those in need. He cared even for the leaprous. he forgave the soldiers as they nailed Him on the cross. And yes, He did preach repentance and the kingdom of heavens. but always accompanied by acts of love, in a serving way. I agree with Graham.

 

ahh.. biblepassages.. what's your point really.. that it should all be about love and forgiveness, no matter what religion (if any)?

 

My point is that as a christian, I say that this disaster is not a punishment to sin, but it is a situation in which people can either come towards God or turn away from Him. And that in this situations, christians should devote themselves to support the aid, be it financially or in person, and all of them in prayer. Charitable and merciful, like the good samaritan Jesus speaks about. Like Graham says. This should not be a chance to throw Bibles as people (though giving Bibles to people is a good thing), but this is a chance to show love in a serving way to the people around them, some of which persecuted them.

Didn't I make my point clear? Sorry. Please tell me what was unclear or if I need to explain my words.

 

I disagree... Giving them bibles is a bad thing, for many reasons, but the main one being the cost involved in printing these bibles... You could use that money to buy food, supplies, shelter, etc... - I think a bible is the last thing these people need (unless they want to rip it up and use a fire fuel).

 

hear hear sis!

Just for the sake of the argument... imagine that every faith would give their holy book or a book about their religion (in case of religions that don't follow dogma's) to others. You'd have an interesting collection in the end, that's for sure.. but don't you get how annoying this is? It's soooo preachy and actually that's the whole aspect that drove me away from Christianity.. the 'I know it better' and preachyness. I was raised Catholic and was a regular church goer.. after that I tried out protestantism and even went to those christian festivals (you must now them, 'Opwekking' and 'Flevo') several times. I took a university course 'exegese' (Bijbel verklaring, oude en nieuwe testament). I know the Bible very well. And still after all this praying, thinking, reading and feeling untill I couldn't feel know more.. I couldn't believe in the Christian God. I do believe in Jesus as an historical person, but that's a different story.

Why am I ranting on about this? Because I get irritated by biblethumpers.. I'm sorry. The fact that you think it's ok to just hand out bibles to people kinda ticked me off. Those Hare Krsna people do it as well with vegan cookbooks and stuff, but their religion isn't as dominant and overpowering.. they are always open for discussion and I have never encounterd one that was way preachy or told me I'd go to hell for the way I live.

Basically when it comes to Christianity... been there, done that, thought it was fun and cozy for a while.. now following my own path.. please stop handing me bibles and using biblequotes as arguments.. and don't go praying for me either unless it's for something else than converting me.

Don't get me wrong.. I respect everyones path and faith.. I'm just not too good with people pushing it down my throat (or those of others, esp. people in need, that's just too easy). That's why I like buddhism so much.. they are like anti-pushy.. you practically have to harras them for a while before they even start telling about their believes and even then they don't preach.. they want you to be cynical and find your own way.. and if you finally decide that buddhism is your way.. they'll guide you.. don't drag you along.

 

Exactly.... the organization my church belongs to is planning on going down there.

United Pentecostal Church Int’l Sends Disaster Assistance Team

The UPCI Compassion Services International (CSI) is sending its emergency SMART assessment team to Asia to determine how to best provide disaster assistance to victims of the recent earthquake and killer tsunami.

SMART stands for Strategic Management Assessment Response Team. The six-member American Team is made up of professionals from the fields of medicine, international relations, international missions and disaster assistance.

Danny Smith, public information officer for CSI said, “Our strategy is to assess the urgent needs of survivors; determine how to best use our resources to provide help; and then to insure that donations will be expended in a careful and judicious manner.”

The value of the CSI SMART Team was established in Barbados and Grenada following Hurricane Ivan this past year. Since then, multiple medical clinics have followed, along with construction teams who repaired and rebuilt houses and churches when over 90% of the people of Grenada were left homeless after the killer hurricane. CSI activated its Mercy Medical Network teams of physicians, medical professionals and construction specialists.

One week after the earthquake and tsunami unleashed death and destruction in Asia, the death toll is now estimated to go beyond 160,000, including over 100,000 in Indonesia, 40,000 in Sri Lanka, over 10,000 in India. Thailand's death toll could exceed 8,000. Over 500,000 were injured and 22,000 are still missing. Millions are displaced and homeless with no drinking water, food or clothing or blankets.

CSI receives daily updates from its partner missionary organizations in Asia including contacts in Colombo, Sri Lanka and from the coastal areas of Southeast India. Over the next several months, CSI will continue to provide disaster relief and assist in emergency relief efforts. Volunteers of CSI are already helping in the field.

CSI is appealing for urgently needed charitable contributions to provide medicines, food and water to victims. Funds will be used to buy these medicines and emergency supplies in the field. Even though CSI has already allocated funds for immediate disaster assistance, we are requesting concerned citizens from churches and communities to contribute donations so that prompt relief for affected people are possible.

CSI is the international humanitarian arm of the United Pentecostal Church, International, and provides disaster relief during or in the aftermath of disasters.

The UPCI is headquartered in Hazelwood, MO (USA) with 4 million constituents and 28,000 ministers in 170 countries. There are over 250,000 constituents and 3,000 churches in the region of Asia.

- upci.org

 

velvet...I'm not saying I'm gonna bash a Bible down your throat. I'm also not saying that people should go there and evangelize out of bad motives. Because love should always be the motive. And giving people a Bible when they're sick and/or hungry is not really loving. Aiding sick and hungry people who persecuted you in the past, THAT is loving. Therefore my opinion is that christian organisations and missionary's should defenitely get in contact with local churches or chirstian communities in the disaster area, it's their culture, their land, their civilisation, their country. They know better what is needed than we western people coming there in a team. Yes, the missionary's and christian organisations should go there. But I think they should get contact with local churches and communities, who should play an important part in the christian aiding and restoration work. So I think CSI and SMART ar doing a great job!

 

If it was a complete muslim country.. or hindu.. so if there would be no christian churches or communities.. would they go and help without evangelising?

Somehow I doubt that.. and therefor I doubt there 'true love'.. although saving their fellow humans from damnation is in a way love as well.. just not the kind of love non-christians are waitng for

 

yeah, but you can't blame them, really.

 

Evangelism should be a lifestyle. And yes, giving someone a Bible would be part of evangelism, yes, but the lifestyle of evangelism is one of serving, humility, love, dedication, and compassion.

 

yeah.. but you don't need a religion for being serving, humble, loving, devoted and compassionate.. and if you are.. I don't see why you have to bring up your religious roots all the time..

But since we're on that train here anyway: maybe it's different because my spiritual interest is on the one side based on paganism, which is polytheistic (sp?) and buddhism, which has no gods at all. For me it's not weird to think of someone having a different faith or praying to some god (any god). I have the feeling though, that followers of the three major abrahamistic paths aren't all that accepting and respectfull towards polytheists or atheists... but ofcourse, not everyone is the same so you can ofcourse be different.

Second I'm sceptical as to why some (!) Christians are doing 'good deeds'. Afraid of not getting into His Kingdom? Obeying His Rules? Doing WWJD? Well.. if you're not doing it out of only and total love for you fellow human being and not for any other reason but that, I will remain completely sceptical. And giving Bibles while you're doing your 'good deeds' shows exactly that to me.. trying to scare back a few more of His Sheep. Either you are a true evangelist and preach on a soapbox in the park or go door by door OR you shut up and go out there and help people without any hopes for personal gain.

Sorry.. I'm ranting again.. this subject is just kinda old to me but it gets me going every time.. lived to long among fundies that thought I was weird for being a vegetarian and at least wishing them to get freerange meat because I was worried about 'all of Gods Creation'.. *sigh*.. I'm sure you're a good guy Dutch Diciple, plus you're young and enthousiastic so the biblethumping hopefully will wear of a little. I just truly hope you don't end up like that chick guy (from the christian cartoon thingies) 'cause the best way of converting people is to just mind your own business when it comes to religion and set a good example.

*hug*

 

To be perfectly honest, it seems to me the Christian Response to this Tragedy has been Swift, Effective and done 'without question' to all involved.

Being they ARE Christian Groups sponsored by Christians.. they have every right and reason and 'matter of course' to be sharing Christianity or explaining why they believe what they do.

Personally.. I thought the Original Article posted in this thread was interesting.
The author is indeed being 'Cheeky' but turnabout is fair play
(even if it INFURIATES Ellis and everyone else)

So far.. it appears that 'Jesus Hands' are doing the right thing.

I have no idea what 'Pagans' are doing to help out but Im sure their are a few doing their best?

 

firstly, i have not "attacked" christianity as a faith by expressing my distaste for the opportunism of some people who call themselves christians. in fact, if you will look back over some of my past posts you will find that i have actually on occaision defended christianity from those who would use it as an excuse for hatred, be they "christians", atheists, or even my fellow pagans. jesus did not teach intolerance anymore than he taught self-serving opportunism, as i'm sure you will agree.
while i think that all spiritual literature should be made freely available to those who desire to seek and learn, be it the new testament or the kama sutra, my personal objections to handing out bibles to tsunami victims is that of poor taste in timing. really, these people have enough to worry about. perhaps, if the missionaries really feel the need to establish the presence of their faith in a certain country, and sincerely feel passing out bibles is the best way to go about it, then afterwards, when the bodies are buried and mourned and the clean-up is past might be more appropriate. perhaps there will be people questioning or reevaluating their faith in the aftermath, who will remember the kindness of christian missionaries (or those of other faiths, for that matter) who would appreciate learning more about the religion then. but to be throwing bibles at them even as they struggle with their very survival to my way of thinking is opportunistic. worse, if the victims find it to be so as well it could foster resentment, making all of christianity "look bad" and actually have the opposite of the intended effect. i say, let the christian service to their god be through their service to their fellow humans in rescue efforts, clean-up, medical aid, etc. they can pass out the bibles later, to those who are genuinely interested in them, when people are more receptive and not so much in immediate crisis.

dutch deciple and epiphany, you may find it hard to believe but i think both our faiths actually have quite a lot in common, for many pagans serve their gods through service to all humanity as well. i think it would be more productive for genuine, effective dialogue between those of differing faiths, if we could all look at the commonalities in the desire and embracing of shared values such as justice, love, respect, peace, and service. let God/dess/Spirit/The Almighty Something sort out the "good" from the "bad"; really it's His/Her/Its job to do so, not ours, and we have no place to usurp that power.

peace.

 

velvet - good work works should not be done to afraid of not getting into His Kingdom. If there's one thing the Bible's clear about, it is that one cannot work his own way into heaven. Good deeds ain't your ticket home!
And Jesus says that if someone does good works so that people see how good you are, you better don't. So doing 'good works' to work your way into heaven, or to show off, are both no-go for a christian. I gotta say that tha's sometimes easier said than done though, but hey, it's a fight with myself, no-one said that'd be easy.

And please tell me, who's the chick guy? What christian cartoon thingy? .

"I have no idea what 'Pagans' are doing to help out but Im sure their are a few doing their best?"
I wouldn't see why a pagan wouldn't help out, what do you mean? Sorry, I don't understand.

 

Out of the 55 world organisations helping out with the disaster in asia, 22 of them have some form of religious basis... that means that 33 of them have no religious connection what so ever, (so if you think about it, they have been set-up, and are helping because they want to, nd not because they are trying to gain any favour with god). I got this info from the BBC news website... I'm lookiing for the link and will post it as soon as I find it.

As for pagans specificly, I've no doubt that pagan followers are donating money to the cause as much as christan (or other religious) people. They might not have an official body - "Pagan Relief" or whatever - but that's because there is no central pagan authority (because of the main way that paganism works)...

You should help because you want to help.. if you're only helping out because you think it's your ticket into heaven, then you're a sad sorry person.

 

so Kitty, do you agree with what Graham said? Quite the same as what you just said in the 2nd paragraph, at least that's how I see it.

 

Dutch diciple:

It's a guy that draws cartoons with mostly a scary story to try to convert people to christianity.. although he seems to have a specific form in mind, since he bashes almost everything and anything.. gays, pagans, fantasy games (like dungeons & dragons), 'house music', etc etc..

It are little cartoonbooklets called 'tracts' that you can order and spread around.. in my opinion, this is as fundy as it get while being passive agressive But hey, what do you expect from a guy that grew up with his last name being 'chick'.. hehe

Here the link: www.chick.com and here you can read the stuff online: http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

Oh and by the way.. with allll the people donating soooo much money I'm pretty sure there is money and help coming in from all walks of life and all religious paths.. hehe.. I wonder if there is a 'satanists for tsunami relief' fund..

Let me know what you think of those tracts!

 

thank you for that acknowledgement. yes, there are many pagan groups that are working very hard to raise money for the victims. i believe starhawk and her group put out a call for tsunami aid, i know their are other groups trying to raise funds too. i also know that candles are burning on personal altars, open circles, and coven meetings everywhere, and that many rituals and meditation circles have been held for i guess what you could say is our equivalent of prayer for those in need.

as for actual "missionary" work, i'm unsure as to how visible the pagan presence will be abroad due to several factors: firstly pagan faiths tend to be smaller and less organized than the "world religions", and so usually lack the funding to send groups great distances. secondly, we are very aware that our religions ("pagan" actually refers to a number of earth-based faiths, not a specific religion) tend to be very misunderstood the world over, and so most of us keep a low profile. thirdly, we do not proseletyze, as we believe that all paths are valid and to interfere with someone's spiritual path is an insult not just to the person but the spiritual process itself. it is a very different worldview with christianity's, but with no less concern for spirit. lastly, most of us believe that service to the gods through service to humanity is something that should be just that: it is the service itself that is important to us, not the religious trumpeting. i'm sure that there are many individual pagans interested in travelling to help with the relief efforts, (i know of at least one person involved with celtic shamanism who is trying to find out how he can volunteer even as i write this) although it's rather unlikely that they will be doing so as open pagans. we really don't care whether people know what our religion is or not. what's more important to us is that we're doing what we can to heal and help.

now i'm curious. i'm going to go check the witches' voice and starhawk's webpage & see what specific groups around the country are doing for the victims. i'll post what i find on the pagan board, and if people are interested i'll post it here too.

guys, pagans, christian or otherwise, our differences are not that important right now. if we really want to help the victims, we need to set those differences aside, and embrace what we have in common, and what we can do together to help. we can squabble about theology later. it's not important now. perhaps that is what the real lesson of this tragedy is.

 

Its interesting to me how AmandaN 'Discounts' the Religious Orgs because they are 'doing it for self-interest'.

This shows stunning ignorance of Christianity and what and why Jesus was here in the first place.
The very essential issue in Christianity's New Convenant is THERE IS NO WAY TO EVER WIN FAVOUR WITH GOD.

Instead... Christians admit they have no hope to ever 'win favour' or 'earn points' - instead they live by the Grace of a free gift of acceptance.
Then
They (ideally) allow God to change their hearts and minds, ultimately doing good works simply because its 'Good to do Good'.

Like I said.. there has been trememdous response from the Christians (not the least of which being the Pope)

Too bad some bigots in here have to make-up and attribute false doctrines in a desperate effort to 'cancel out' Christianity's response.

 

I think this quote summarizes the main point of the original article posted by Ellis:

"A man who begins to take a pantheistic view of nature has no answer for the fact that nature has two faces: it has a benevolent face, but it may also be an enemy. The pantheist views nature as normal. In this view, there is no place for abnormality in nature." (Francis A. Schaeffer, Pollution and the Death of Man, Ch. 2)

- http://www.rationalpi.com/theshelter/ecology.html

By contrast, Christianity asserts that we live in a world broken by sin. Things are not now as they have always been or will forever be, a point that many Christians often fail to grasp:

http://www.christiancounterculture.com/40615/islamization.html