Esoteric, (Hidden,) Knowledge

Their roots are in observation. I am not to be revered in any form. We are not candidates for life, we are alive.
And that would be the esoteric approach.

 

The Magickal rubber simply hits the road with whether you achieve your desired outcome or not via Magick. To find out, one must practice Magick.

You could just as easily argue that adapting to your environment, learning from nature, all the hunter-gatherer stuff, is some sort of divine intelligence, God guiding you.

I could easily make all the same arguments about Science that you did about Magick. You could call evolution a work of God rather than Science. You could argue that doing everyday things is a divine intelligence at work.

And I would never FORGET to eat. My body informs me to eat.

What's the difference between putting your socks on with or without Science? If I never knew what Science was, how would I need it in order to put socks on?

According to your definition you could argue that Magick is a Science. Observation and experiment are keys.

 

Not quite. You can't "just as easily" argue that those things are God guiding you, because that requires positing the existence of a God, who has many characteristics. This is a complication of things, not an explanation. You are invoking much more complex mysteries in order to solve more basic mysteries; that's a bad road to take, because the next step would be invoking a God of Gods, who guides God's hand in guiding you, you see?

I didn't call evolution a work of science . . . that doesn't even make sense.

Observations and experiments are core to science, and I am accusing you of not using them properly. I am saying that I have a funny feeling that you are discounting the experiments where Magick produced no result and highlighting the times when something finally happened in accordance with your will; whether this means that it's the Magick which did it, is obviously highly dubious.

What are some "rules" of magick which you have unearthed in your 7 years of study? How do I use Magick to get a job?

 

I would agree Shamanism is much older than Science or Religion and thedope are you arguing that a Shaman can take any form?

 

I'll answer your question with another question...how does the Scientific Method measure the fact that each human is different in DNA? Or that each snowflake is different? And how would the results of Magick be different than the infinity of snowflakes? Not everything accords to the Scientific Method.

The rubber still hits the road with whether you have or haven't achieved what you originally aimed for using Magick. Even if you did achieve it and somebody tries to argue that it wasn't because of Magick, well how you can you say one way or the other? The person used Magick, and got the result.

 

No i am saying that knowledge is shared being, all being is knowledgeable. The statement was these things originated with shamanism or the shaman. These things all arise from observation is the fast definition or the esoteric spelling.

 

The issue here is a Spiritual issue. If you are atheistic then you don't see yourself as One with the Cosmos, correct? You see yourself as an inherently separate, mortal being?

The Magickal view sees that the internal and external worlds are one and the same, so manifestation must occur in accordance with directed will and concentration. It gets in touch with the God and Immortal within.

This is where the ritual comes in, as a means of internal focus and intention.

 

Genetics, Geometry, Meteorology, and everything in between can be used to explain DNA and snowflakes. I think maybe you picked a bad example? I think you have a hard time coming up with "blind spots" for science when you actually know very little about science. Differences in human DNA is one of the most researched areas in medicine . . . that's how we are unraveling genetic diseases. The myriad forms in snowflakes are produced by crystal dynamics and the properties of water. This is exactly the kind of thing that science can investigate.

"The person used Magick, and got the result"

Right, and I can pray to Zeus every day for the things I want, and when my mommy finally gives me a Playstation for christmas, I'll know that it was Zeus, right?

 

And I haven't been practicing Magick for 7 years I have simply been reading about it and just started practicing.

 

Success is achieving your desired outcome. What will be done is done. Will is not desire it is effort. If there is not difference in fact, you are wasting time trying to make the distinction and that goes both ways for those who are making them. We can set that issue aside in it's entirety unless discovery and understanding is not really what you want. Am I a magician or a scientist, What the fuck difference does it make, I show up.

 

VERY, VERY, WRONG.

Atheism means a lack of belief in a divine entity. That's it. Just like how you are atheist when it comes to Zeus or Thor; you don't believe those divine entities have any kind of existence outside literature. Everyone is an atheist to the 10,000,000 gods of antiquity; modern "atheists" just take it one god further, the abrahamic god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Science confirms that we are all One with the Cosmos, on very fundamental levels; our atoms were forged in stars, and we are the universe itself.

“It's like you took a bottle of ink and you threw it at a wall. Smash! And all that ink spread. And in the middle, it's dense, isn't it? And as it gets out on the edge, the little droplets get finer and finer and make more complicated patterns, see? So in the same way, there was a big bang at the beginning of things and it spread. And you and I, sitting here in this room, as complicated human beings, are way, way out on the fringe of that bang. We are the complicated little patterns on the end of it. Very interesting. But so we define ourselves as being only that. If you think that you are only inside your skin, you define yourself as one very complicated little curlique, way out on the edge of that explosion. Way out in space, and way out in time. Billions of years ago, you were a big bang, but now you're a complicated human being. And then we cut ourselves off, and don't feel that we're still the big bang. But you are. Depends how you define yourself. You are actually--if this is the way things started, if there was a big bang in the beginning-- you're not something that's a result of the big bang. You're not something that is a sort of puppet on the end of the process. You are still the process. You are the big bang, the original force of the universe, coming on as whoever you are. When I meet you, I see not just what you define yourself as--Mr so-and- so, Ms so-and-so, Mrs so-and-so--I see every one of you as the primordial energy of the universe coming on at me in this particular way. I know I'm that, too. But we've learned to define ourselves as separate from it. ”
― Alan W. Watts (an atheist)

 

Your only reality is spirit. Any sense of degree of separation is to loose sight of yourself.

 

The reason I used that example is to show that each human and each snowflake is its own unique result of creation. In the same way, the results of Magick and the means by which the results come are going to be different each time, but you know you are on to it if it's getting what was originally intended.

You can get as specific about it as you want. This is what the notebook is for. You can say, oh well I got this, but the means of which it happened were from "mommy", and if that's not what is desired, you can get more specific about your ritual.

If Science wants to study somebody practicing Magick and apply it to the Scientific Method they are completely free to do so. However, they're not doing that and that's not my fault.

 

As has been stated many times, Magick is a way of being that combines ritual with will. It doesn't mean you only do the ritual. You do the ritual and then you go out into the world and do your Will. You are a vibration, and the vibration of your ceremony/ritual stays with you when you enter the outside world. Ceremony is simply a means of condensing and focusing your vibration. If you are a generally negative vibration person, and tend to believe the world is shit, you tend to attract those circumstances into your life that reinforce that belief. That is Karma. And it all applies to your personal vibration. Magick is a means of empowering your personal vibration towards your desired aspirations. Just because Science chooses not to study that, doesn't mean it's not legitimate.

 

Oh please, don't even try going that route. You've yet to produce a single statement that implies there is even anything TO this magick business other than you wanting to sound like you've got secret VIP access to secret ways of putting on socks and boiling water. Scientists also are not launching expeditions to the north pole to search for Santa Claus.

China, so far I have been approaching your claims from the standpoint of scientific incredulity. I don't know that this direction can continue much further, because you have soooo many misconceptions about what science is, what basic philosophical positions like atheism represent, and so forth. You also seem unable to move away from these misconceptions as you keep regurgitating the same tired tropes about the evils and dangers of science as compared to the wonderful and illuminating path of magic (even though in another breath you will say the two must meet).

So let me try a philosophical approach. I hope this does not confuse you, since I am an "atheist scientist", but allow me express another point of concern for your endeavors from an ACTUAL "everything is one" point of view.

Everything is one. All that will be, is. As above, so below. Then why bother with trinkets and mantras? Just boil the water and make the tea. The magick is in the perception. Discard your rituals and items; just do what needs to be done. The adult leaves behind the childish things.

 

But your complaint is in error. We are doing it right now. Remember the universe is every bit informed. Every statement about not doing is an active attack on the perception of what is done. Remember knowledge is hidden only because we are relatively informed. We do not need to seek approval to be what we are.

 

Okay let's look at what is said here. Magical practice is a way of doing. The is no way of being you are being. There are states of being. This is not saying anything is wrong but when we confuse terms we come to confusing conclusions.

 

I've never even once said that Science is evil and dangerous. I've said that it is narrow-minded and refuses to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit into its own system or point of reference, and that Magick would highly benefit from Science's study of it and Kundalini. This has been the same the whole time.

 

Look man, the only way you're going to find out if Magick works or not is to try it for yourself. There's all the info that you need out there to find out how to do it for yourself. Then you can see whether it works or whether it doesn't.

 

If I may say something about our perceptions. Anxiety is caused by the misapprehension of what is so. That means if your are experience distress on any issue it is because you have not determined the fact. Being stressed we think we have to argue the facts but fact is it is an indication we haven't come to the fact. Remember knowledge is being shared. I cannot be more knowledgeable than anyone else. A correct answer always engender some form of peace. We need to honest about the taste of our own fruit.