Environmentalists and Vegetarians

Did you not read the links I provided? We waste so much water and food feeding factory farm animals. This food could be used to send overseas to feed the hungry.

 

We have plenty of excess food of our own, there is not a food shortage, but we'd rather destroy the excess then send it elsewhere.

 

Sending food overseas would consume lots of fossil fuels, better to develop sustainable agriculture where food is needed.

Did you not read my posts, not everyone can go on a vegetarian diet, so just cos your body can handle it i guess can make you pretty righteous.

Factory farming is there cos of the high human pop. so if ur gonna preach vegetarianism u gotta be fair and also preach sustainable pop. growth.

Here’s the formula that summarizes the anthropogenic effects of the ecology:
Carrying Capacity = human population x consumption rate

Plz recognize that there are 2 variables and don’t just attack just one of them cos not everybody will convert to vegetarianism, not even a sizable portion of the pop. will convert.

 

Excuse me, but I stated my case and wasn't giving anyone a hard time. I said what I had to say and didn't argue with anyone...I have my opinion...you have yours.

End of story.

 

Actually, did you not read my post? I'm dissapointed in you.

Did i not say i dont support the environmentally unsound methods of the meat industry just as i don't support those of the chemical faraming industry?

You used the word vegetarianism.

 

Yes, I did use the word vegetarianism...meaning, not eating meat. If you eat meat, you are NOT a vegetarian...and most people...eat factory farmed meat...

 

No shit, but it is possible to be an environmentalist and eat meat.

I wanted to join an animal liberation organisation a few years ago but i didn't like the fact that every one of them in my city claims vegetarianism as its key virtue. Its annoying.

If you're concerned about people eating factory farmed meat, as i am, then lets do something about it. But in the mean time I don't want to hear people telling me why i'm not an environmentalist because i eat meat.

This might not be exactly what you were trying to say, but you made no effort in your wording to make it otherwise.

 

Are you an environmentalist if you eat meat but check its sources? Are you a vegetarian if you eat vegetables only but dont care if they've been sprayed with all those lovely pesticides? I just checking some boundaries here. You see I always thought it was about trying to preserve the environment, forgive my naievity.

 

The links you provided did not have any info. as to the source of their information. For all I know they could easilly be making it up for propaganda reasons. But seriously, they really misrepresent some of the information that is correct. Such as, the link has a quote -

Geographer Karl Butzer puts it this way:
"In about 150 years the agricultural soil resources of the United States have been cut by about half, and in some areas such as Oklahoma, a single generation sufficed to destroy almost 30 percent of the soil mantle.

While it is true about what happened in Oklahoma, that was due mainly to the type of wheat farming they used not cattle or meat production. That was the dust bowl and has been well studied for the causes of it.

How do I know that the rest of the information of those sites isn't equally twisted for a cause??

 

Here's my two cents [again]:
I believe someone said before, about how vegetarians/vegans are absolute, while environmentalists are not....
and I agree with that.

I believe that many aspects of being eco-friendly can go hand in hand with vegetarianism and vice versa, but to say you can't be one without the other doesn't seem very accurate to me.

To be an environmentalist you don't have to do this or that, to be an eco-friendly person...it's not like it's specifically defined term like, "You must plant 10 trees a year, and pick up litter once a month along side a highway to be an environmentalist" LOL...whereas being a vegetarian, you do have "rules" of what you can and can't do. You can't eat any type of meat, or anything with lard, you're not supposed to wear leather, or fur...etc... so they are two different TYPES of "activism" making it very hard to compare, and make a statement that you must be one to be the other. I know people that are or were veggie that waste things constantly, drive their cars around as if they live in them, etc. and to me that's not very eco-friendly, but it didn't make them any less of a veggie....they still stayed clear of meat and what have you.

And, I'm sorry to go against what I may have said before, and Annie, because you DO make a good argument, but I was thinking and vegetarianism doesn't rule out the farming of animals, so technically that's not reducing any sort of factory farming either.

Vegetarians can still eat milk, cheese, eggs, etc... so the same animals that are going to be used for meat later, are being used for your vegetarian products first.

I am not trying to pick on anyone, but I think if you want to believe that the two are mutually exclusive, the way you said, then it wouldn't make much sense to be eating those animals by products either. I mean, that is the argument I'm hearing most, from Annie's side, and those who do agree....

I know many people who go veggie without the environment being even part of the reason. I consider myself eco-friendly, but honestly, the environment had no place in my decision to go vegan... it was solely about the animals for me, and to me, I've always seen the environmental aspect of it, a bit of a weak argument.... Although I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY disagree with the farming of animals, of any sort, I also think that there are a lot bigger factors in the damage of our environment [litter, cars, etc.]

*shrugs*

 

I too know of vegetarians who are very wasteful, buy crap they don't need, have the AC turned on so high to the point I find it uncomfortably chilly, drive everywhere. I've resisted the AC even during heatwaves of 35+C plus humidity -- but I wouldn't impose that on everyone, just like I wouldn't want others to impose a veggie diet on me.

About hunted vs. factory farm: if all meat eaters switched from farmed to hunted animals we would have a real disaster on our hands just cos the size of the population. There would be tons of hunters tearing up the forest, stamping on the soil, and even affect the populations of the game species.

Being eco-friendly should NEVER be about exclusivities, if it does than the whole cause is lost. Remember, we're trying the save the Earth, this means we should encourage EVERYONE to pitch in anyway they can, there is no room here to make this out to be an elite group cos a small elite group will not achieve much on their own. We need the collective efforts of all, baby machines and meat eaters.

 

Wow...you're getting pretty defensive. I didn't say I was better than anyone else did I? I don't think anyone did. Did I berade you saying that you're a horrible person for eating meat? No.

 

Yeah I agree there, I think everyone's getting a little too defensive here.

And I don't think that's what Annie intended.

I think we all know who we are here, and that's what counts. I'm sure no one here would actually say anyone is less of anything because they are or aren't a vegetarian or environmentalist, or whatever. It's just a good topic to throw out ideas about... no need to get upset over it

 

Exactly, I just raised a question...and I thought that we could speak openly about these things without getting defensive. I wasn't saying anyone is BAD...it is just MY OPINION...I wasn't even trying to convince anyone that I was right...yet, a lot of people are coming in here, blantently saying I'm wrong...

It is my opinion. So speak openly...no one is saying anyone is better than anyone else.

 

I never said u said i was a horrible person, i'm merely talking about your absolutism on the definition. You said this:

As if to disregard all my other efforts to be eco-friendly.

It's speculative whether some veg's have a smaller eco-footprint than me.
There are those that drive everywhere, buy heavily packaged goods and junk, live in low-density housing in the burbs that was green space just a decade ago, have 3+ kids (more than the replacement level), run the AC high, etc.
I live in a highrise therefore I don't increase the demand for development of green spaces. I don't have a car, don't buy over-processed, packaged goods, rarely run the AC, practice VHEMT, and do everything in my sig links.

I also stretch what would otherwise be a single serving of chicken, etc into 4 servings, in the form of pad thai for example, with lots of veggies and yes even tofu. I have the most varied diet of anyone I know, the benefit of a past vegan experience, current omni and living it up in a major, enthno-rich metropolitan centre rich with quality restaurants. This has enabled me to stretch the meat or whatever so that my diet is less meat-based and more veggie-based than most meat-eaters.

 

Um, that was the first post...

I certainly wasn't pointing YOU or anyone else out.

It is my opinion, that with all those things that are done in the meat industry...we could conserve water and food resources much better...and is one of the EASIEST things to do to conserve these resources.

MY OPINION...MY OPINION...how many times do I have to say that? We are exchanging opinions...not trying to convince others to believe what we believe.

If everyone agreed with everyone else, how boring would the world be?

 

I wholeheartedly agree, it would be pretty boring .

I agree that’s a matter of opinion and if a veggie diet is agreeing than I agree it’s one of the EASIEST.

I AGREE!​

 

True, and those issues need to be addressed. Governments in India and China are trying to address the retirement issue, that is old age security and female infanticide, they're still smoothing out some wrinkles. I discussed and offered solutions in other threads, if I get the time i"ll post the links .

The current economic model that the labour pool is a part of is unsustainable. The Green party acknowledges there will be shift in employment. Also automation continues to improve labour efficiency thus reducing the need for labour.

If everybody reduced and reused, if everybody do what I do it would impact many industries... the entire paper industry itself would collapse. And those who manufacture cheap and useless trinkets, which is my estimate to be a $billion industry, there is no substitute, that is an excess of labour.

Don’t believe all the media hype of there being a labour shortage, that’s just employers who want a competitive labour market cos it’s in their best interests. I still hear about an apparent or pending shortage of mainframe programmers cos stone-age programmers are retiring and they can’t attract young bloods. That’s BS, they’re laying them off faster than the market can absorb them back, even with the retirements. Newer applications are replacing older ones and if young ppl are not going into the field it’s cos job security is an issue.

 

As long as there are opinions, people will defend them, because thats the nature of opinion.

As long as you have opinions that accuse meat eaters of not being environmentalists, don't naively assume that we won't get defensive.