does it REALLY bother you that our (USA) image has been ruined?

I have, with great interest. And plan to continue to.

Not sure what your point is.

 

People don't get this.

Zionism is next to dead. All the Zionists are in wheelchairs now, and will soon be dead.

Israel is just an extemely secular, ridiculously liberal, and amazingly socially progressed country stuck in the middle of a shithole.

No one really wants to be there, but there's nowhere to go.

 

I'm trying to explain why Jews have a different perception of the situation than you do.

I thought that I made that obvious.



Off to class I go.

 

I don't know much about Israel's internal politics , but I hope its true.

 

Alright, my man. Have fun.

I'm interested in different perspectives, alright.

 

Ever since the sinking of the Lusitania, America's military complex has grown. World War 2, the powers afforded to the military and Macarthur for eternal war have been a political force of their own. The military advises the president and the press are silent out of respect for decisions while the military divides up foreign nations before the missles are launched.

It's inevitable for a military to grow as ours did and not try to seize power completely. Civilians in think tanks like PNAC and a few generals at the top control what information is fed to the leaders of this country before a war is declared. War is inevitable when a military is allowed to grow as large, and a military will keep growing when wars are declared. Unless we have the civilian leadership in this country stop wars from being declared every decade to justify the militarys budget, wars will keep being declared.

Perhaps it's easier to notice the flaws in all this from the outside and not be caught up in jingoism.

At the same time, the countries who have reasonable critiques of America have always had them, such as the Philippines, which is the worst thing Americas ever done. yet people seem to pay more attention to the wry critiques of our culture from Europeans. Europe isn't a very good place to look to on foreign policy, they divided the world for 500 years and killed a whole lot of people.

Nor have I seen much from 'fereners' that indicates that their general population has a much more nuanced perspective on foreign affairs. It's just that the joke of fat stupid Americans is an easy joke for stupid people to laugh at. It makes some people feel superior, and funs had by all.

I wouldn't particularly let it bother me.

 

I understand this. it's a very misleading word that I use loosely, in this case to mean Israeli nationalism.

I do think American's have no place criticizing Israel existing on "Palestinian territory" while they sit happily on land stolen from the Injuns.

 

And the Arabs stole it from the Assyrians, which was stolen from the Jews. And there was a lot more stealing before and between that.

However, guilt about our genocidal clash with the natives, doesn't excuse blindness to other wars which we provide the weapons for. And not even sell them if it's a commodity, just give them away to Israel.

 

I just wonder how's it's possible for jews of liberal tendencies to ignore the land-grabbing.


I mean, if you say, we got a nuke and the ADF becuase the Palestinians are terrorrists... there is logic there. One may not agree but there is logic.

HOW do you rationalize territorial expansion on a moralistic basis? I'm not talking about Israel's right to exist, I'm talking about it's malleable borders.

How has it made Israel any safer?

 

Don't feel bad with a little money and determination Auschwitz-Birkenau could be easily made operable once again


just kidding


Hotwater

 

sure, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the usual intonation: "they have no right to be there, they STOLE it".

I think I'm bowing out too. catch you guys on the flip side.

 

Damn, just got here.

 

Talking ofcountries and disputes ,

I think youd be hard pushed to find people more bitter and bizarre than the Russian hating West Ukrainians.Its like
Q" So how long has the Ukraine been a country"
West Ukrainian answer "Oh its over 1000 years old , but it was under foreign occupation for the last 950"
QWho by?
Answer: Errm Russia.
Q But didnt the Ukraine used to be called "the Rus" which was where Russian originated ? Wasnt this Russia and had the capital Kiev ruling over Moscow and modern day Russia?
A "Er yes er no, well ok yes.But we hate Moscow because there was a Ukraine 300 000 years ago , our archaelogists found some pots and pans and a trident in the ground which is our symbol"

And they go on ...

One of em even said that Russia stole the name "Russia" and theyd like to call the Ukraine Russia , if Russia stopped calling itself Russia....

Hmm and I wonder why my grandfather left Kiev...LOL

 

yeah, I just really hate talking politics for more than 5 minutes. it's all theoretical and usually circular. I think I'll go read about Boogabaah's soon-to-be ex (I think?) boyfriend, or what Hyphy has to say about whether or not a direct approach can be used as a neg.

 

Zionism is a political movement. If you support the state of Israel and believe its existence is just, then you're at least loosely considered to be a zionist. Then again, I don't really care for these labels. All I will say is that the good majority of violence in the Middle East is because of Israel and its long-term treatment of its Muslim neighbors.

And please, liberal has nothing to do with warmongering. Some of the biggest death-mongers and war-mongers have been "liberal."

Nobody wants to be where? In Israel?? What about the US, Europe, Australia?? Are you saying Jews cannot live in these places?

 

Hahaha!!! Here's a man thinks like me!!!

Up with the honeys
Down with the politicos

 

dude, I whole-heartedly agree. once a thread derails into politics or religion, it's just impossible to steer back on track, and this one covers both those subjects. it just seems impossible to keep such discussion light hearted, some people have to get all politically correct and offended.

 

that's why the politics forum is so funny, though. everyone is so serious.

 

Another thing I would like to point out, whether people want to hear it or not, is this. I have always found it to be quite ironic that those most outspoken against Israel are the religious orthodox Jews. Those who are most pro-Israel are the secular Jews, who for whatever reason believe that land belongs to them because of what some made up story in the Old Testament says. You have to ask yourself why this is? What justified the killing and displacing of vast thousands of Muslim people (which continues to this day) so the state of Israel could be created as a "homeland for the Jewish people" (as the cover story tells us).

Of course the real reason for Israel's creation is FAR different from what the people have been made to believe. Most people cannot even tell you the key players and money interests in Israel's creation. There is something more here that they're not telling you, and unfortunately, most people don't want to hear about it -- especially those who are pro-Israel.

 

naw, idont give a fuck.

not just because this isnt my homeland. but because you are completely right, reputation isnt everything. & we aint no 3rd world country