Do you feel that Gods expectations are unrealistic?

I said he did not sacrifice his life. He is not dead. He gives his life in devotion to god and his brothers.

The holy spirit teaches all things, what is contradictory. It is not my holy spirit, it is the holy spirit of god, the comforter.

Puppet for a spirit creature is idiotic. No, that is true, you have decided for yourself that love and hate are the same. The reason for this is you must condemn in order to justify your unwillingness to forgive.

You common waterbrother. It is not loving to hate, therefore the interpretation of the phrase, to hate what is evil, is to not give support or succor to evil. It is this kind of literalist interpretation that produces the hypocritical effect.

Satan is a slander against the holy child of god. That slander has effects.

Mankind generally does not find the mark of god in the world, and instead seeks someone to blame for his discomfort.

You are confusing the words give and sacrifice. they are not the same.

Jesus teaches mastery through love. How do you feel about your 18 yr old daughter, presuming you had one, going on a date with a convicted rapist?
How about an accused rapist.
It is that "hate of rape" that causes men to be imprisoned. It is that hate of rape that causes innocent men to be sent to prison. You cannot hate unless you have first judged something as evil.

Jesus is the master, no his zeal did not eat him up.

Relinquish judgment.

Well if that was the truth you would be correct. What did I make up? What did I try to force on you?

Like I say the holy spirit shows me that you are child of god.

There is your difficulty, the written word says nothing. It is a record of what was said. We call upon the holy spirit to teach us the meaning of the text. The text does not impart meaning on it's own, you must first learn to read.

The holy is real and is not a spirit creature. As I have loved god I was given the gift of the holy spirit as promised in the bible. The holy spirit teaches all things. Jesus baptizes with fire and the holy spirit.

You search the scriptures because you think that in them you find eternal life, Yet they affirm what i am telling you.
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man you have no life in you. Unless you take on the being of christ, you have no life in you.
But the counselor, the holy spirit whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your rememberence all I have said to you.

The holy spirit teaches the difference between what is the same and what is different. The holy spirit teaches me you are a child of god. The holy spirit teaches me that love and hate are not the same. When jesus said get behind me satan was he calling peter satan, no he was saying peter was thinking in a consistent manner with the slander against the son of god. i.e.
that those approaching were out to commit evil against his master and they should be stopped. If you hate you invite hate, and in turn hateful acts. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

the holy spirit teaches what is the same and what is different.

What faith do you have in your brother? As you do unto the least, you do also to him. You do not comprehend the weighty gravity of that statement.
The statement is not about worshiping a man named jesus.

When you learn what it means, I desire mercy not sacrifice, then you will be merciful even as your father in heaven is merciful.

Again, you have not given your witness as to what sayings you keep.
Is the sum of it for you belief? What role does forgiveness play in your life?

 

Yes, misses the mark of god, the sign of god, the truth of god.

That is your belief. My practice is to use the instructions of christ in life.
I am using the instructions of christ in real life, I am not espousing my beliefs.

No one is telling good news beyond what I have accepted. The instructions I have accepted come from christ. I am a disciple of christ. You it seems are a disciple of your groups interpretation of the bible.
Your lesson is not that christ lives, your lesson is I do not comply with your beliefs.
You have accepted no spirit at all. You believe in spirit creatures.
You are not the only one who pays attention to this conversation, although I can't see how, from outside, it could possibly be any kind of pleasant to watch. However, when you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

 

umm, trust in Jesus? that's all I got.:d

 

I know what you said but what you said just isn't true. Jesus did sacrifice his life for us.

You keep confusing your spirit buddy with the Holy Spirit but it's not.

Yes it is, that is why it hard for me to understand why you do it.

It seems that your spirit buddy has taught you to believe that if you tell this lie often enough it will come true. But it is not true and it is just making you a liar.

Another lie. I am not unwilling to forgive and I have not condemned anyone. No matter how many times you tell this lie it will not be true.

You keep telling this lie but God did not say just don't give support or succor to evil, God said to Hate it. You do not obey God's command and thus you do not love God.

You don't even know what it means to be hypocritical or you would realize that the fact that you give lip service to showing love to everyone and then treat me to the verbal violence you have used in this thread is a perfect example of what being a hypocrite means.

Your spirit buddy would like you to think that. It makes it easier to get away with what it's doing to you. The trouble is Satan is a wicked spirit creature that is misleading the entire inhabited Earth.

Is that why you keep blaming me?

What you fail to realize is that in certain contexts they are the same, this scripture for instance.

Not a problem unless he rapes her and then I'm going to hate the fact that he raped her. Why do you ask?

I'd feel the same? Why do you ask?

It's interesting, that you attack me for an answer that I haven't even given you yet. Are you being judgmental toward me before you even hear all the facts?

I have not judged you but it seems you have taken up judging me as a hobby.

Well you can pretty much fill in the blank with any of the lies you have said about me and have tried to force me to accept.

Your spirit buddy doesn't know what a child of God is.

It's common English usage and you are trying to make some kind of big deal out of it, get a life.

Sometimes but not always.

But not to change the text.

Actually, the text imparts a lot of meaning on its own.

If your spirit buddy teaches you all things, why do you even bother to learn to read?

In a way you are correct, the true Holy Spirit is not a spirit being but your spirit buddy seems to be a spirit creature.

For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3)

Yep.

I search the Scriptures because they are God's Word and I love God.

If they affirm what you are saying then why do they contradict what you say so often?

Unless you take on the being of Christ? See you have no clue what you are talking about? You can't just say what the Scriptures say, you have to try and mix in a little untruth as well.

Yep, all that I have said to you, not a whole lot new made up stuff.

More made up stuff.

But why does your spirit buddy teach you to ignore God's commandments?

What? Jesus called Peter, Satan, because Peter was saying things that could have come straight out of Satan's mouth.

If one does what God commands things will always turn out for the best, so the big problem seems to be that you don't trust God.

Yep.

Yes, I do understand the gravity of that statement. Do you ?

Tell me who do you think Jesus was?

I know what it means. Do you ?

If you would bother to read my posts instead of just making up what you think they say, you would have read that I try to keep them all. I'm not going to waste my time writing them all out for you, when you can just look them up for yourself or maybe you can just let your spirit buddy tell you what they are.

What?

I'm probably more forgiving than you are.

 

I thought I would add this for extra clarification. It's right before the verse you sighted.

20If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also. (1 John 4:21)

 

For even more clarification:

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

How God loved Peter:

Matt 16:23
"Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

 

No, sin only means miss the mark, not sign or truth but mark.

The instructions of Christ in real life? Okay, in real life Jesus was tempted by Satan, that would instruct me that there is a Satan that could try and tempt Jesus.

True, that is because you accept whatever your spirit buddy tells you but the Scripture is not talking about what you accepted but what was accepted by the Christian congregation at the time the Scripture was written.

Yeah, if that was true done you would you know what Christ means, why Jesus was The Christ and why Jesus was sent forth by God.

All I have done is point out that what you say does not agree with what the Bible says.

If you want a lesson okay, Jesus is The Christ that gave his live for us as a ransom sacrifice and was resurrected and now is at the right hand of God.

Still can't get it right I see.

I have accepted the Holy Spirit and know that it was by inspiration of the Holy Spirit the Bible was written, something it seems that your spirit buddy has failed to teach you yet.

Yes I do, don't you?

The disciples of Jesus Christ learned much from his discussions with the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees. Not that I'm saying that I'm Jesus or anything close even but if you have the backing of the Holy Spirit and you know the Scriptures, discussion like these are pretty easy to handle.

Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:19-25)

 

The interesting thing to me about John 13;34 is the part you highlighted, when you realize that to imitate the love that Jesus showed you would have to love your brother enough to sacrifice your life for them.

 

Of what importance to you whether the word be sacrifice or give, or lay down? I think that emphasis distorts your perception of what is going on. His father saw to it that he lost nothing of his. Why would christ say i desire mercy not sacrifice. He said what his father asked him to say. For I have not spoken of my own authority, the father who sent me has himself has given me commandment what to say and what to speak. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. If god was looking for his son to sacrifice himself, why, I desire mercy not sacrifice?
Jesus was glorified in god not sacrificed to god. And what shall I say, father save me from this hour? No for this purpose I have come to this hour. And I when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
I understand that for you, "ultimate sacrifice" represents love.
To me unwavering devotion represents love.
To me the crucifixion signifies the demand for payment that is the worlds verdict that the son of god is guilty and he must pay, be sacrificed of his life or liberty. But god glorified him, his judgment that the son of god have everlasting life. It is not payment, sacrifice, that redeems. It is forgiveness, mercy that redeems. Forgive them, they know not what they do. This is the new covenant.

Do you imagine for one instant if jesus had said on the cross, smite them because they seriously fucked up, that his father would have glorified him, knowing that he desired mercy and not sacrifice? Jesus said I will be ransom for many, because of the lesson he taught, not because he was crucified. As a matter of fact you cannot avoid taking on the flesh and blood of christ if you want to be part of the kingdom. His is not a substitute for your investment. Unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. For this reason the father loves me, that I lay down my life that I may take it again. Not because he spilled his blood.

 

To say that I am without god, is the absolute greatest condemnation you could make. Like I say, I am not the one denying the holy spirit. Does Jesus mean that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? Seems to me his flesh is long gone. Did those who ate with him eat his flesh, or was that symbolic language? Oh, it just occurred to me that you would say that the bread, because it was blessed actually became flesh, but maybe not.

That love and hate are not the same is a vitally important distinction, as I have told you the belief that you should actually hate leads to excesses. The words are used to legitimize inhumane treatment. Innocent men go to prison for the zeal to crucify the hated evil. That hate, in practice is unleashed against men, it is not unleashed against a theoretical
evil. If I make this distinction does that make me without god? If I say your interpretations must be tempered by the living facts, does that make me without god?

He who gains his life shall loose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall gain it. I am more than intimate with this saying and I tell you there is no hate involved. what is involved, is the recognition that the world is not valuable for what it has to offer. It represents no level of ambition or excitement to me. I hunger and thirst only for righteousness.

 

What verbal violence would that be? I said that the holy spirit shows me you are a child of god and the distorted beliefs about your brother, namely yours truly. I take what you say and compare to a passage in the bible, and I point out that your argument exactly corresponds to the pharisaic position that jesus described.

I say I asked for the holy spirit to teach and you say what the holy spirit teaches me, cannot be holy because what I have said disagrees with the letter. I asked you if the holy spirit spoke through you, you said no why should it? The bible is enough. You do not enter in with the spirit and accuse me of not having it either. If it is verbal violence, shall we say the truth hurts? It needn't, nothing real can be threatened.

I proceeded to answer your question why it should. If you love me you will keep my commandments and I will pray the father and he will give you another counselor to be with you for ever even the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him or knows him. The promise is not, I will see that you get a bible.

Now you do the same for me. You take what I say and compare it to a passage in the bible and say here is your violation. The difference is the content of what I am saying is not against christ, it is not against you or your potential. I have asked only for mercy and spoken for love. It is the things that you speak that cause your discomfort.

I am teaching as the holy spirit informs me. Let the tree be good and it's fruit good or let the tree be bad and it's fruit bad. Do not divide your attention between good and evil. Seek god only. Do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Not let's all hate evil. Love and hate in fact, never meet. Where one is the other is not. Is this lesson in violation of the spirit?

Understand, in the kingdom of heaven there is no dark, only light. If the eye be sound the whole body will be full of light.

 

Really. I have been reading what you say. Predominately I see you write that the bible says this and the bible says that, in answer to questions put to you. You dodge the question every time when I ask you to speak for your own spirit, just like here. Look it up you say. Yet you challenge me constantly on my demonstration of spirit, and you bring all manner of quotes to prove my 'demon spirit buddy. It is ridiculous. Do you see the fricken size of this post and the confusion that is sown. Talking to you I feel like I'm on jerry springer and you are bringing some really cheap drama to the table. Take it with a grain of salt, Let it all be for edification friend.
So you believe in the probability that you are more forgiving than your brother. Interesting that you would gamble to set your self above me. I don't think that has anything at all to do with the message of christ though.

 

Does a theistic psychology apply to the atheist as well? It seems though that God would expect one to use that kind of psychology, most don't seem to for the required realism. Realistically, I think Olderwaterbrother is using an atheistic psychology for the effect that he dispute your realism of expected success of referral to the lack of forgiveness in that sort. He wants to gamble that he is more successful as an atheist in the needed imagination for God's existence. His theism is in language usage but as a whole person he means to point out redemption.

Come on, thedope, did he really set himself above you for God's redemption plan for you? He is being psychologically revealing of YOU as deducing an atheist who has his own redemption to mind. He thought he'd send you reaiing to new baptismal needs.

 

Every time you claim that I lie, you condemn me.

I am not judging you. I was describing the reason I make the the distinction
Between love and hate.

I need not fill in any blanks, it is not I that is claiming offense. I have no desire to force anything on you. You have taken it upon yourself to attempt to discredit what I say.

No, it is not burdensome to love god and it is not burdensome to love your brother as your self.

It was as I say, you search the scriptures because you think you find salvation in them. If you claim other things as well, then fine.

They don't, you do.

When we see christ we shall be like him. Let the mind be in you that is in christ jesus. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Yes, unless you take on the being of christ. These words are not inconsistent with truth.

You do not recognize the work of the holy spirit:
And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or what you are to say, for the holy spirit will teach you in that very hour what to say.

 

We know he means well, he does not understand the well meaning of what I say.

Of course not, I said it is interesting that he would gamble to set himself above me. To gamble does not mean to win.

Why is it important to waterbrother that I be wrong? It is not important that I be right, it is important to teach as I was taught. It is up to the individual to determine rightness or appropriateness for themselves. I am taught of the at-one-ment of the sonship, the re-membering of gods kingdom.

 

but owb does post verse to prove this points though.

 

thats why he gave us the bible?

 

The bible doesn't tell us what god thinks.

It tells of some history, some philosophy on life, and some men's ideas. It was written by the hands and minds of men.

 

thread\

 

Waterbrothers interpretations are not consistent in their premises. For instance his beliefs about love. Waterbrother boldly claims that love is a feeling yet it is written in the bible, he who does not love, does not know god, for god is love. Love is creative force, not, "a feeling". This fundamental misconception about love shows in the way he interprets scripture.

Now waterbrother uses a literal interpretation for some sayings and not others.
When it is written to love what is good and hate what is bad, he says if you don't hate you violate gods commandment. If you interpret the scripture through the lens of love, it is understood that the words "hate what is bad" are a figure of speech indicating that all effort be poured into what is good, and no creative energy, love, given to bad.

"Little children let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth". The experience of hate is not the same experience as love. The act of hate is not the same as the act of love.

What could waterbrothers opportunities to hate bad, look like? You can only hate if you have first judged something as unworthy. If love and forgiveness is the command, Then judgment and hate cannot also be the command. "God is not a god of confusion." "You cannot serve two masters, for you will love the one and hate the other or you will be devoted to one and despise the other.

Waterbrother interprets much of the bible through the lens of archaic superstition and adolescent fantasy. Our discoveries of the workings of the human body and mind have shown that the afflictions that affect us are pathologies and not spirit creatures. The living word is not alive without living information. We grow in understanding.

Waterbrother would like to point out that it is written that jesus is the only begotten son of god. That is one premise yet "see what god has given us that we should be called children of god and so we are", is an entirely different premise.." Only son and we are children are not the same. We must reconcile those two points through the lens of love. Love does not seek it's own. Love does not favor one child over another, but the child that is lost deserves greater attention for his greater need. In the kingdom of heaven the first shall be last and the last first.

Waterbrother believes that the bible interprets itself. This belief strains at all credulity and is in fact not credulous. We must learn to read. How many times have you read something and not understood it. The bible is no different. Written materials are symbols. If you do not have a key to the meaning of the symbols then the symbols are meaningless to you. When the symbols are meaningless to you, you will lean to others to explain to you what the symbols mean. Waterbrothers interpretation does not come from the investment of his own spirit but from a system devised by someone else, i.e. supportive interpretive materials.

That is not to say that waterbrothers beliefs do not comfort him. That is not to say that his rapt devotion to letters does not give him a facility or a position of honor among his peers. Love does not scatter it gathers. I attempt to include waterbrother in a deeper appreciation, waterbrother would deny me my own relationship with the holy spirit because his beliefs about the bible are more important, than recognizing the spirit of god and having faith in his brother.

I asked him the question, what faith do you have in your brother, "for as you do unto the least, you do also to me." We are real people, not theoretical people, and I quote scripture also jmt. Do I believe jesus is the son of god?
Yep, he is my older, wiser and more attentive brother as well as my teacher.