Determinism - just another theory?

Not to be dismissive, If you truly are interested, you can PM me. I would like to keep the discussion on the ideas.

 

Alright.

We go through potty training, which suggests the when where and how is not up to our will. How do you defend free will?

 

I wonder though if it's possible to believe in the theory of determinism, but not be spiritual. Can the universe and all of its attributes be (pre)determined, yet random?

 

I think we "argue" over these points when we see views with which we disagree in order to clarify our own positions, bring to the attention of others points that seem to be relevant to the issues, and open ourselves to arguments from the other side. Otherwise, we're closed systems, and so are other people whose opinions affect the world in which we live. I've changed or refined my views after doing this, and I think it's a healthy process. It's how we learn and grow. I often discover when I attempt to explain my ideas that they seem far less wise and valid than when they were just rattling around in my own brain, especially when they're challenged by others.

 

No, the universe and all of its attributes can't be predetermined, yet random, if determinism is the theory t acts of the will, natural occurrences, or social/psychological phenomena are caused by preceding events or natural laws ( Definition of DETERMINISM ) and if "random" by definition means a selection process in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.( the definition of random ) It is certainly possible to believe in determinism without being spiritual. Materialistic determinist theories are a dime a dozen: Marxism, Freudian psychology, behaviorism, etc. It is possible for random events at the micro-level (e.g., sub-atomic particle or quantum) level to be statistically nullified at the macro-level so that the end result seems non-random. There's a finite probability that all the molecules of oxygen will cluster at one end of a room leaving people at the other end gasping for air, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen.

 

Free will starts when you can read a hipforums website page.

 

No, I comprehend it. It's just that it's stupid. The type of God it negates is an elderly man with a white beard who lives in the clouds.

The amount of ways it has manifested are immutable. Pain has few limits, and you need pain to exist. The fact that human beings have exacerbated that pain to their ends is really not that stunning of a fact. It's actually very basic. Yes, we grow, but maybe...just maybe...that is God inside of our hearts telling us not to do these bad things after all.

You guys want pain, I guess, but you want it to have some kind of magical limitations. The problem of evil is null and void when you consider what it takes to have a functioning world in the first place.

 

No wonder I panic when the servers crash.

 

Thanks for sharing, this makes sense.
I like Christ's message very much
Sometimes I miss praying. It was always very comforting.

 

It’s never too late to pray. <3

 

I do believe in a force of sorts. The energy that flows through everything. I could pray to The Force lol

 

Yes

Pre-determinism is more tricky. If we view the universe as a system, we're inextricably embedded in it. Pre-determinism suggests a viewpoint of having all perspectives of the system.

This is why science tests set up parameters and give specifics of what's being tested and the limitations of a study.
It's making predictions but controlling the variables in the environment.

 

There is no premise of living in clouds or white beard.

 

I don't think you comprehend what I'm saying.

 

Kinda. I believe all things mutually arise, and everything is a cause and an effect.

I don't believe in free will. I don't believe in shoulds or shouldn'ts either.

 

Just wait till the Chinese take over and no westerners can read it.

 

You said you understood the argument but then went on to list features that are nowhere to be found in it. That demonstrates you don't understand the argument.

 

Objectively, there IS no difference between rape, murder, winning the lottery. We have decided(are deciding) what is right and wrong, good and bad.

When I say "God", I mean Everything. There is nothing that isn't God, including us. I believe Jesus knew that, and that was what he was on about. So I didn't mean that all beings who suffer also experience the opposite, as individuals. I am saying that "God" experiences all.

Removing the illusion removes free will because if we suddenly knew ourselves as divine beings, and knew that God was all and All was Love, etc... then we would never decide ourselves that rape and murder were wrong. Free will is the Point of it all. We are here to remember that we are God, and realise the illusion for ourselves. Otherwise none of it needs to happen at all. It's a game, really.

What about people like me who find types of physical pain enjoyable? Suffering is entirely subjective. And if what I believe is true, then nothing can really hurt us. It's pretend. I can choose to suffer, or I can remember that I am an eternal aspect of God, and am un-harmable, and recognise that the suffering I feel is illusion.

I still feel terrible about children suffering in Yemen, for eg. and I still think we as a people need to create a world where that isn't the case. Which is not unrealistic, just unrealistic in our current state. We know what it is to watch children starving to death, which means we can visualise a world where they don't. Because while we're here, living in a self-created illusion, we should be creating it to be a reflection of what we are, which is God.

Sorry this isn't written that well. If I were doing a piece of writing it would be a first draft! I discuss this stuff better in person.

 

You weren't asking me, but I am in a similar(ish) position. I was raised atheist, became Christian when I was eleven - fourteen, abandoned it because it made no sense (Like Deidre says, it's distorted) and would have said I was agnostic until certain books and things that happened to me brought me back to God.

I wouldn't actually say I'm a "Christian". I think there are many gods, many Jesus'(people who remember who they are), and at the same time they are all the same thing. A Christian, to me, is someone who uses the construct of Jesus Christ to come to God. I use the terminology because of the culture I was raised in, but I don't think it's necessary. Like you say Meliai, the Force.. or a friend of mine refers to "Source", or for ease, I say "God". The ALL.

 

You said the problem of evil only pertained to a certain type of God. I listed features of the only type of God who maybe my argument wouldn't pertain to. Therefore, you're the one who didn't understand the argument.