DANGEROUS "Holy Roller" mentality

According to Snoops this quote can’t be proven. Although it doesn't seem to a secret that he did condemn homosexual behavior.
Having said that he was a good man as measured by his life as a whole, which is all any of us can hope for. He wasn’t perfect nor did he claim to be. What I do take note of is the need to discredit him along with Christianity as a whole. It’s not new, it has been going on for as long as I remember.
Our understanding of scripture and balancing the Old Testament with the new is very complex and deep. It is tough to understand sometimes what Gods purpose was and sometimes is. I don’t always get it right and find myself reversing a previous understanding or position of what things mean. There is much to debate when it comes to the nuances in scripture.

The fundamental things seem to be the most important and easiest for us to understand, those are what I call Kingdom issues. At the top of that seems to be love. When asked what one must done to inherit the kingdom of God his answer was simple. “Love God, Love your neighbor.”(paraphrased). Who is our neighbor you might ask? Everyone! (That’s in there too.) pick all the people we disagree with, all the people that have done bad to us, republicans, democrats(thats right, them too). Pray for our enemies, thats what he said.

Simple concept, hard to do, I get it. But from where I sit, and from my understanding if I am going to make a mistake in this it is far better to be mistaken on the side of love than condemnation.

 

Windman:

Thank you for sharing your views here.

I have heard that Billy Graham's son Franklin is EXTREMELY homophobic/anti-gay, condemning homosexual behavior even more than his late father.

To simplify things for even better clarity, I would wager that all evangelists are anti-gay...I think it is a given; I often, think in the back of my mind, what MONUMENTAL odds a GAY evangelist would face if one were to appear on the "Bible thumpin'-circuit."

One could only image the slew of death threats he would be receiving....NOT a pleasant scenario to contemplate, for certain.

On a related note, the Mayor of London (son of Pakistani immigrants) received many death threats when he voted in favor of same-sex marriage.

Sad.

As for me, I simply judge others for the kind of people they are in character and integrity; I eliminate the negative, and, instead focus on the positive, the "good folks" vs. the "bad".........race, skin color, religion, sexual orientation.......they matter nothing to me.....I choose, instead, to focus on the person HIMSELF, and his positive characteristics.......

"Live long and prosper"

 

This where it is important for us to follow the source rather than the followers. Jesus’s entire life was evangelical , and yet his intentions were to bring all into His Fathers kingdom regardless of background.
As christians we so often get this wrong, sadly too often. It seems we always want to filter scripture through our own prejudice and context rather than the context it was written in or the context the events them selves occurred in.

They best advice I can give is to read it for yourself, and do your best to understand the why of it. It is hard to do. Our world is much different than it was. It changed drastically over the several thousand years the scriptures were written in, it’s no wonder there are dramatic differences in the Old and New Testament. How much more has changed since?

That’s not to say that there aren’t fundamental truths, there are. Like Love your neighbor.

 

Windman:

Very well said.

In the Bible, it says very simply: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

As I have already said, it never ceases to amaze me as to how many "Bible Thumpers" seem to sweep this one under the carpet.

Reading......translating......deciphering ancient scrolls, texts, and writings can be quite complicated, to say the least.

So many writings now have totally different meanings than they did centuries ago, when they were first written.

So much of the Bible, especially, is often taken out of context.

"Do unto others", I feel, is the simplest and best way for a person to live his life.....

"Live long and prosper"

 

You're expressing the essence of Christianity as I understand it. Unfortunately, it's acquired lots of baggage along the way. In my church, we always say the Apostles' creed, beginning with "I believe..." I whispered to my wife once, "I don't believe any of this..." She whispered back "it's just words". The creeds were a product of factional disputes that were settled by one side overcoming the other and settling the dispute by dogma: the virgin birth, the resurrection of the body, the Trinity, etc. How important are these? I think the important things are the life and teachings of Jesus, and as you say Love thy neighbor.

 

SPOILER ALERT: That was a rhetorical question. The synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John; the account of Jesus of Nazareth's ministry. At no time is Jesus reported to have ever mentioned, much less condemned, homosexuality. One can extrapolate that he simply didn't consider it an issue worth addressing.

 

Most US Republicans sympathetic to Christian nationalism, survey finds

 

From an old novel in my library:

"........because tolerance, a fragile plant, has to be diligently tended, else it withers and dies. As it fades, another growth-the poisonous mushroom of intolerance-takes its place......"

This speaks many volumes, indeed......

"Live long and prosper"

 

Religion looms so large in my wife's upbringing, and she still watches "devotionals" on an app, and it's a dick killer, because it's just another thing that keeps her so close minded, not wanting to try things or make sex interesting, and just another thing that drives me towards wanting a boyfriend/fuckbuddy on the side.

 

I hear you.

Religion/religious devotion can often be a HUGE roadblock for men (bi or gay) wanting a sexual/emotional relationship with another man.

As I have mentioned awhile back, sadly, religion can be (and, sadly, often is) used as a weapon of intolerance and bigotry, instead of a way of expressing love, brotherhood, tolerance.

I know from reading opinions and experiences from bi married men here, that, as the years go by, the wife often is not much interested in sex; a man (REGARDLESS of sexuality) has URGES and DESIRES.

And, I've read here on this board many times over, the EMOTIONAL bonding (as well as the sexual) bonding with another male can induce STRONG feelings and serve to forge a powerful and meaningful friendship......

"Live long and prosper"

 

Your life experiences, I am sure, indeed ring VERY true with many married bisexual men here; the lucky ones have spouses that have little or no issues with their husbands having sexual/emotional relations with other men.

Others, sadly, risk losing any semblence of family harmony and stability if the truth is discovered.....from what I have read on this board, THAT is indeed a living nightmare, BEYOND chaotic and heart-wrenching.

It HAS to take a LOT of courage, to say the least, to be a bi married male with a less-than-tolerant spouse.

Then, too, look at how many GAY men marry a woman, and raise a family, only so they can CONFORM to the ideals of straight society.

NO WINNERS here at all.......

"Live long and prosper"

 

Earlier, I came across a book I purchased many years back, that I had misplaced until now:

"HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE CHURCH: BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE" (edited by Jeffrey Siker)

I had the following marked:

"........Christians opposed to gay rights frequently cite Genesis 19, the story of Sodom. The history of the interpretation of this passage displays how prejudice and honophobia have distorted the message of Scripture......."

".......throughout the Old and New Testaments, the sin of Sodom was never understood as homosexuality........."

Never ceases to amaze me at how narrow-minded, holy-rollin' bigots can rewrite the Bible to suit their own rampant bigotry and hatred in the Name of the Lord............................

 

The lie the holy rollers love to tell is that Sodom was called Sodom because of homosexuality and all the ass-fuckery that was taking place when the bible kinda just says that Sodom and Gamora were full of wickedness and had to be destroyed and poor Lot's wife who disobeyed God and looked back and the whole pillar of salt thing that religion never bothered to explain how she turned into said pillar of salt but this, too, is just more of the bible's habit of self-fulfilling stuff that can't be proven or disproven and you have to take on faith that it's the truth. Not only do the holy rollers manage to squeeze homosexuality into this but they get another chance to "put women in their place" by pointing out how another woman was made to suffer because of gross disobedience and abject hardheadedness.

Once I realized that religion was full of shit, the ranting and ravings of holy rollers was, at first, hilariously funny but as I got older, it was pretty sad to see grown-assed people believing in something that has never told the whole truth about anything but want you to believe and take it on faith. I have told many a roller to not even speak to me about sexuality since I already know that they're not only been prejudiced about it, they have no idea what they're talking about and if they're not citing Leviticus, they drag out Sodom and Gamora and twist it all up and as if to prove their point when, really, they don't have one except the one that was given to them.

Once you are aware of the habit to rewrite the bible to suit their purpose and arguments, you... just don't pay attention to them. I'm happy to let them continue to wallow in their ignorance; I will never really understand why they'd rather believe what religion teaches and refuse to believe in life's realities. They aren't qualified to talk to me about sex and sexuality. Go tell that shit to someone who's going to believe it... because I don't. I can't. It insults my intelligence.

 

KD23:

EXCELLENT post; agreed 100%.

Long ago, I read somewhere that, with some people:

"......the truth frightens them, so they resort to lies to protect themselves, and put up walls to further protect themselves from a truth they wish wasn't so................."

Sad, indeed.................

 

Homosexuality has never been a salient issue for me personally until recently. I'm strictly hetero, in a traditional monogamous relationship & raising four kids conceived in four years. Reading the previous posts makes me appreciate how lucky I am to be in a loving relationship with a wife who still enjoys sex. She once said to me, before the 2015 Supreme Court decision protecting gay marriage: "Its too bad gays can't get married, so they can enjoy the same kind of loving relationship we do." I felt flattered, and loved her accepting, empathetic attitude toward gays. it does seem to me that it's more desirable and conducive to social stability for people to be married to the person of their choice, rather than to face the grim choice between celibacy and union to someone they aren't attracted to. Divorce is far too prevalent in our society.

Recently, however, the issue threatened the unity of my church, the United Methodists, which I love dearly. The Church discipline prohibited gays from serving in the ministry or being married in the church. Several members of my Sunday School class left over the issue--some not wanting to be a part of a homophobic organization, others thinking that the Church wasn't going far enough in condemning an immoral lifestyle. Fortunately, the national church came around in recognizing that marriage can be a union of "adults of consenting age". Needless to say, not all members are pleased, but at least those of us who are left can go on with our worship and bible study without a major distraction.

The controversy did bring home to me major differences in interpreting the Bible

Not quite. He said: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". (Mark 1:17)

 

If you think that holy rollers are dangerous then they're going to be. When the answer to the question of why homosexuality is a sin is, "Because God said so!" well, hmm. Did He really say that... or did man say that He said it?

 

There are actually several passages that are cited as condemning homosexuality. I'll take up a few tonight and get to others tomorrow.Please note that none of them were attributed to Jesus.

• Sodom & Gomorrah, Gen 19: 4-10.Lot invited two outsiders (actually angels) into his home, & a band of local men showed up, demanding that he send the strangers out so they could "know" them (presumably in the biblical sense). Is this "homosexuality"? Certainly, gay rapists aren't your typical homosexuals. Nor is it clear that these men are homosexuals. It is not uncommon for ostensibly straight men to subject other men to sexual violation, as a means of humiliating them and asserting dominance. Interestingly, there is an interpretation of this passage in the Bible (Ezekiel 16:49-50}: 49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." Hmmm. Could some of those Holy Rollers be Sodomites?
• Leviticus 18-22-24. 2 " 'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." This seems pretty explicit. Did God dictate it, or did humans put words in His mouth? Bible scholars are of different views. Traditionalists attribute it to Moses during the Exodus. Biblical revisionists attribute it to the so called P (priestly) source, written during or shortly after the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century. The priests were mainly concerned with keeping Jews separate and "pure" under conditions where they were faced with pressures to assimilate. It is easy to understand why they would want to discourage any conduct which didn't lead to procreation. Note; the prohibition extended only to male homosexuality, not to lesbians, who were added by Saint Paul centuries later. It was males who were understood to be the carriers of the seed. For a man to have sex with another man was to turn him into a woman, and both partners were equally responsible. It is easy to understand their concern, and why the taboo would be important back then. The question is: was it given by God as an eternal maxim applicable for all times? Or did it apply to the special circumstances of Israelites or Jews in the periods concerned. Maximizing population may not be as critical today as it was back then.
  
• Leviticus 20: 13. 13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense. Wow, that's harsh! But the concern about being fruitful and multiplying was very real back then. Whether or not it holds as strongly today, in a world of 8 billion people, is debatable.

 

KD23:

Recall, also:

"........let he who is without sin cast the first stone........."

 

I've heard the Leviticus 18 verse actually says do not have sex with a boy in the original text, and it's been misinterpreted as "man" for whatever reason over the years. (The reason was probably homophobic.)
That aside, what troubles me is if someone is purely homosexual, they're not going to have procreative sex anyways, so what's the harm in having fun on their own terms? It's better than being sexually frustrated. That's the real sin.