Christianity is dying out in the West

Not only in India, but other places too like the Amazon, christian missionaries are responsible for many abuses. In the case of Amazonian tribal hunter-gatherer societies they single out for 'salvation', culture shock is the favoured tactic. Handing out things like digital watches to people who've never even needed to invent the wheel.
In fairness, this is mainly done by American missionaries representing their own brand of muscular exangelism, and some, the catholics for example, have criticized this kind of 'conversion'. However, their own record in South America historically is far from exemplary.

 

The Great Erasmus has spoken...case is closed.

Erasmus, you're out of your depth here in the Hinduism forum. Go back to squabbling about evolution and prophecies in the Christianity section.

 

Its so horrible that stuff like this would happen... ::shrug:: I really don't understand it...gah...that fire and brimstone stuff is pretty scary when you get harrassed by it...and its really unfair to other cultures. Missionaries need to learn that they should be acting like Jesus not scaring people into believing in him...doesn't Christianity mean to be "Christ-like"?

 

I honestly think the only Christ-like attitude that could be adopted by a western person coming in contact with these tribal people would be to try to learn as much as possible from them.
Trouble is, fundamentalists generally have no respect for any other culture, and don't even recognize that it's a 'culture' they're dealing with. In the end it comes down to a sick numbers game of numbers of souls 'saved'.

 

It depends on what you are talking about?
Are you talking about greedy people who are defying Christianity to get gains for themselves?
Then yes, I believe that probably happens. Here in Canada in my City there was all kinds of scandal with the Sikh Temple and bribes, payouts and all kinds of favourtism towards gaining supporters for one branch of the religion or another.

I would be a liar if I came here and said "Hindus are forcing people to convert or they withhold Money or Help to Poors"

Bullshit!

If you are telling me that you know of some corrupt missionaries or something we call a 'Cult' then you might also have a reasonable true statement.
Maybe.

I can tell you that there is a 'Hindu' Cult here that has been shut down and part of the reason is because they were caught putting Drugs into drinks and serving it to visitors and then convincing the people that it was a 'Sign from God' that they should convert.
Then they would tell the new converts to give all their money to the Temple and they also would starve the people (make them fast) so they would be weaker in mind and submit to their teachings easier.

This is a 'Cult' and this is worse because it was run by greedy, sneaky people who even abused their own version of Hinduism by commiting crimes.

This would be stupid and dishonest if I was to come on here and post:
"Hindus drugging people and tricking them to gain converts!"
or
"Hindus being caught making Converts give away all their money to Hindu Priests"

Of course Im not a liar trying to make ways to hurt and gossip about Hinduism so I can cause hatred and trouble against it.

Too bad a few dishonest people in here are doing that against Christianity.

 

Even if there are abuses on the part of people representing themselves as Hindus, that would hardly be an excuse for Christians to do the same.

But historically Hinduism is not a 'missionary' religion, unlike Christianity.
The disastrous results of the activities of Christian missionaries are well known. Back in the days when Christianity was the handmaiden of imperialism it led to the wholesale destruction of many indigenous cultures, and the deaths of millions. To-day it is the handmaiden of American cultural imperialism.

What use is it to distribute tv sets to hunter-gatherers? They can't even understand the language of the programmes, and it seems incredibly concieted to seek to bring these cultures down to the deplorable level of western society with all it's social and other problems, which none of these missionaries can solve even in their own back yard - never mind seeking to impose this on others. It can only do harm.

In India Christianity has never had a very wide appeal. There is nothing of any value in it which is not in some branch of Hindu philosophy or another. And it lacks the ancient roots of the Vedic culture.

It's not really useful just to accuse others of lying because you don't like their views - in fact it is somewhat purile.

BTW- Sikhs are not Hindus.

 

Oh no you dont.
Dont pretend like I was justifying one wrongdoing by pointing out another.
You know full well that my very intention was to show you up for insincere accusations by showing you an honest assesment.

Here you have gone ahead and proven my point by quickly pointing out that just because these Hindu Temples or Certain Greedy, dishonest Gurus in the Temples have been caught in wrongdoing - does NOT impune Hinduism in general.

So that is my point to you.
These Greedy or AntiChristian people (or bad offshoots of Christianity which may be 'Cults') will be caught and probably caught by Christians themselves.

But notice how I never said "Hindus are being caught Cheating People"
Or
"Hinduism is using its money to do this or that here in Canada"

Unlike you I dont pretend that the 'bad ones' or the sneaks and cheaters are the same as the actual religion and doctrines themselves.
Not to mention the vast majority who are NOT cheating or abusing their positions or meddling with others.

Christianity has nothign to do with Imperialism and is not a US product or some sort of political device.
People using it as such (like you) really need to stop doing so. The actual teachings of Jesus dont speak to these things.

 

Why do followers of ALL religions always forget the stuff about PEACE that they ALL preach??? Isn't that the best part???

 

::nods:: I quite agree...that too much time is spent on separation instead of unity on trivialities instead of love....

 

You are clearly blind to what is the reality of the situation, both now, and in the past.
The real teachings of Jesus are in no way incompatible with Sanatana Dharma. It is just that most Christians don't really understand them.

To you, your assesment may seem honest. To me it looks like a failure to accept reality. And I assure you my comments are sincere.

I do think though that the activities of missionaries now and in past ages do reflect sadly on the fact that often, Christ's teachings have been perverted and used for purely political ends. How else can one interpret the 'culture shock' tactics used by US missionaries I mentioned earlier, or indeed the events surrounding the conquest of South America, or the euopean 'scramble for Africa' in the 19th century?
If these were offshoot cults, then all the major Christian denominations would have to be seen as offshoot cults since the main churches were and are all implicated in these crimes against humanity.

 

Source:

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/71

When Prime Minister Vajpayee was in the US in September (2000), the National Association of Asian Christians in the US (whom nobody had heard about before), paid $ 50,000 to the New York Times to publish "an Open Letter to the Honorable Atal Bihari Vajpayee, prime minister of India."

While "warmly welcoming the PM," The NAAC expressed deep concern about the "persecution" of Christians in India by "extremist" (meaning Hindu) groups mentioning as examples "the priest, missionaries and church workers who have been murdered," the nuns "raped," and the potential enacting of conversion laws, which would make "genuine" conversions illegal. The letter concluded by saying "that Christians in India today live in fear."

The whole affair was an embarrassment (as it was intended to be) to Mr. Vajpayee and the Indian delegation, which had come to prod American businessmen to invest in India, a peaceful, pro-Western and democratic country.

I am born a Christian and I have had a strong Catholic education. I do believe that Christ was an incarnation of Pure Love and that His Presence still radiates in the world. I also believe there are human beings who sincerely try to incarnate the ideals of Jesus and that you can find today in India a few missionaries (such as Father Ceyrac, a French Jesuit, who works mostly with lepers in Tamil Nadu) who are incarnations of that Love, tending tirelessly to people, without trying to convert them.

But I have also lived for more than 30 years in India, I am married to an Indian, I have travelled the length and breadth of this country and I have evolved a love and an understanding of India, which few other foreign correspondents have because they are never posted long enough to start getting a real feeling of this vast and often baffling country (nobody can claim to fully understand India). And this is what I have to say about the "persecution" of Christians in India.

Firstly, it is necessary to bring about a little bit of a historical flashback, which very few foreign correspondents (and unfortunately also Indian journalists) care to do, which would make for a more balanced view of the problem.

If ever there was persecution, it was of the Hindus at the hands of Christians, who were actually welcomed in this country, as they have been welcomed in no other place on this planet. Indeed, the first Christian community of the world, that of the Syrian Christians, was established in Kerala in the first century. They were able to live in peace and practice their religion freely, even imbibing some of the local Hindu customs, thereby breaking the Syrian Church in two.

When Vasco de Gama landed in Kerala in 1498, he was generously received by the Zamorin, the Hindu king of Calicut, who granted him the right to establish warehouses for commerce. But once again, Hindu tolerance was exploited and the Portuguese wanted more and more. In 1510, Alfonso de Albuquerque seized Goa, where he started a reign of terror, burning "heretics," crucifying Brahmins, using false theories to forcibly convert the lower castes, razing temples to build churches upon them and encouraging his soldiers to take Indian mistresses.

Indeed, the Portuguese perpetrated here some of the worst atrocities ever committed in Asia by Christianity upon another religion. Ultimately, the Portuguese had to be kicked out of India, when all other colonisers had already left.

British missionaries in India were always supporters of colonialism. They encouraged it and their whole structure was based on "the good Western civilized world being brought to the Pagans." Because, in the words of Claudius Buchanan, a chaplain attached to the East India Company, "Neither truth, nor honesty, honour, gratitude, nor charity, is to be found in the breast of a Hindoo!" What a comment about a nation that gave the world the Vedas at a time when Europeans were still grappling in their caves!

And it is in this way that the British allowed entire chunks of territories in the East, where lived tribals, whose poverty and simplicity made them easy prey to be converted to Christianity. By doing so, the Christian missionaries cut a people from their roots and tradition, made them look westwards towards a culture and a way of life which was not theirs.

And the result is there today for everyone to see: it is in these eastern states, some of which are 90 per cent Christian, that one finds the biggest drug problems (and crime) in India. It should also be said that many of the eastern separatist movements have been covertly encouraged by Christian missionaries on the ground that "tribals were there before the 'Aryan Hindus' invaded India and imposed Hinduism upon them."

The trouble is that the latest archaeological and linguistic discoveries point to the fact that there NEVER was an Aryan invasion of India --it just was an invention of the British and the missionaries to serve their purpose. Aryanism is a synonym of Vedic culture.

Secondly, Christianity has always striven on the myth of persecution, which in turn bred "martyrs" and saints, indispensable to the propagation of Christianity. But it is little known, for instance, that the first "saints" of Christianity, "martyred" in Rome, a highly refined civilization which had evolved a remarkable system of gods and goddesses, derived from Hindu mythology via the Greeks, were actually killed (a normal practice in those days) while bullying peaceful Romans to embrace the "true" religion, in the same way that later Christian missionaries will browbeat "heathen" Hindus, adoring many gods into believing that Jesus was the only "true" god.

Now to come to the recent cases of persecution of Christians in India at the hands of Hindu groups. I have personally investigated quite a few, amongst them the rape of the four nuns in Jhabua, Madhya Pradesh, nearly two years ago. This rape is still quoted as an example of the "atrocities" committed by Hindus on Christians.

Yet, when I interviewed the four innocent nuns, they themselves admitted, along with George Anatil, the bishop of Indore, that it had nothing to do with religion: It was the doing of a gang of Bhil tribals, known to perpetrate this kind of hateful acts on their own women. Today, the Indian press, the Christian hierarchy and the politicians, continue to include the Jhabua rape in the list of atrocities against Christians.

Or take the burning of churches in Andhra Pradesh a few months ago, which was supposed to have been committed by the "fanatic" RSS. It was proved later that it was actually the handiwork of Indian Muslims, at the behest of the ISI to foment hatred between Christians and Hindus. Yet the Indian press, which went berserk at the time of the burnings, mostly kept quiet when the true nature of the perpetrators was revealed.

Finally, even if Dara Singh does belong to the Bajrang Dal, it is doubtful if the hundred other accused do. What is more probable, is that like in many other "backward" places, it is a case of converted tribals versus non-converted tribals, of pent-up jealousies, of old village-feuds and land disputes. It is also an outcome of what -- it should be said -- are the aggressive methods of the Pentecost and Seventh Day Adventist missionaries, known for their muscular ways of conversion.

Thirdly, conversions in India by Christian missionaries of low caste Hindus and tribals are sometimes nothing short of fraudulent and shameful acts. American missionaries are investing huge amounts of money in India, which come from donation-drives in the United States where gullible Americans think the dollars they are giving go towards uplifting "poor and uneducated" Indians.

It is common in Kerala, for instance, particularly in the poor coastal districts, to have "miracle boxes" put in local churches. The gullible villager writes out a paper mentioning his wish such as a fishing boat, a loan for a pucca house, fees for the son's schooling. And lo, a few weeks later the miracle happens! And of course the whole family converts, making others in the village follow suit.

American missionaries (and their government) would like us to believe that democracy includes the freedom to convert by any means. But France for example, a traditionally Christian country, has a minister who is in charge of hunting down "sects." And by sects, it is meant anything that does not fall within the recognized family of Christianity -- even the Church of Scientology, favoured by some Hollywood stars such as Tom Cruise or John Travolta, is ruthlessly hounded. And look at what the Americans did to the Osho movement in Arizona, or how innocent children and women were burnt down by the FBI (with the assistance of the US army) at Waco, Texas, because they belonged to a dangerous sect.

Did you know that Christianity is dying in the West? Not only is church attendance falling dramatically because spirituality has deserted it, but less and less youth accept the vocation to become priests or nuns. And as a result, say in the rural parts of France, you will find only one priest for six or seven villages, whereas till the late seventies, the smallest hamlet had its own parish priest.

And where is Christianity finding new priests today? In the Third World, of course! And India, because of the innate impulsion of its people towards god, is a very fertile recruiting ground for the Church, particularly in Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Hence the huge attention that India is getting from the United States, Australia, or England and the massive conversion drive going on today.

It is sad that Indians, once converted, specially the priests and nuns, tend to turn against their own country and help in the conversion drive. There are very few "White" missionaries left in India and most of the conversions are done today by Indian priests.

Last month, during the bishop's conference in Bangalore, it was restated by bishops and priests from all over India that conversion is the FIRST priority of the Church here. But are the priests and bishops aware that they would never find in any Western country the same freedom to convert that they take for granted in India? Do they know that in China they would be expelled, if not put into jail? Do they realize that they have been honoured guests in this country for nearly two thousand years and that they are betraying those that gave them peace and freedom?

Hinduism, the religion of tolerance, and spirituality of this new millennium, has survived the unspeakable barbarism of wave after wave of Muslim invasions, the insidious onslaught of Western colonialism which has killed the spirit of so many Third World countries, and the soul-stifling assault of Nehruvianism. But will it survive the present Christian offensive?

Many Hindu religious leaders feel Christianity is a real threat today, as in numerous ways it is similar to Hinduism, from which Christ borrowed so many concepts. (See Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's book: "Hinduism and Christianity")

It is thus necessary that Indians themselves become more aware of the danger their culture and unique civilization is facing at the hands of missionaries sponsored by foreign money. It is also necessary that they stop listening to the Marxist-influenced English newspapers' defense of the right of Christian missionaries to convert innocent Hindus.

Conversion belongs to the times of colonialism. We have entered the era of Unity, of coming together, of tolerance and accepting each other as we are, not of converting in the name of one elusive "true" god.

When Christianity accepts the right of other people to follow their own beliefs and creeds, then only will Jesus Christ's spirit truly radiate in the world.

 

Erasmus...I've told you already:

You're in over your head here. You apparently know nothing about Hinduism, the correct term for which is Sanatana Dharma.

If you indeed went to seminary, as you claim, what little you think you know is obviously what you were taught from a slanted and perverted evangelical perspective.

Why don't you assume a scholarly attitude, do some honest and openminded study, really educate yourself, and then come back to this forum? Christians are as welcome here as anyone, but when they start spouting falsehoods and propaganda, they're going to get called on it very fast.

In the meantime, go back to your sandbox and resume your debates on whether the world is 6000 years old or not.

 

Once again you are trying to lead everyone away from what was contended.
You had cited examples of wrongdoing among some Missionaries (defying Chistianity) or at worst we heard of what sounds like a 'Christian Cult' of some sort.

This was characterised as being 'what Missionaries are doing' and even still you keep trying to make a generalisation.
But because you cannot do that anymore for your situation - you are now appealing to to historical events in other parts of the world.

I would tell you without a doubt that there is no such thing as Christian missionaries following a plan to withhold food and services unless they somehow 'convert' or else.
Nonsense!
I will tell you that I have not been to India (but am very familiar with Indo-Canadian culture) but I most definately know most of the Christian Orgs who DO Missionary work there.
With the exception of one or two 'bad apples' and a few Churches I would call 'Cultic' the vast majority do NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to resembling ANY of these ridiculous assertions.
Total nonsense and I have no doubt if I get in contact with friends and associates in Tsunami regions (locals) they will tell me, with no doubt, that this is total lies and propaganda about Christians 'withholding food' and Aid.

What I would be wondering about if I were you - why did Christians (many Western) donate and volunteer in massive forces after the Tsunamis?
We know that at one point the governments and military were asking that everyone HOLD OFF and stay back because they could not even organise or accomadate the Missions and volunteers.
In many places they had so much donated food that it was going to waste.

Yet, someone has the nerves to come here and posts a total lie about 'starving victims' being told they must convert (which is not even possible or Christian) or else they could not get food.

Hmmm sounds like one of those lies passed around by people who did NOT do anything eh?

Please, dont come here and feed us bullshit and say its chocolate.

 

From what I have heard
These christian missionaries have conversion drives
where each church is given a fixed target that it has to achieve in a fixed period...

There is healthy competition among the churches as to who will convert the most and then they meet at the end of the month and proclaim that they saved X number of souls this month and pat each others back...

 

It's you that's coming here and shoveling bullshit.

Answer me this...why do you people think that you have to evangelize the world, anyway?

Yes, it's very admirable when you do humanitarian service...if only you would just do that and keep your mouths zipped.

 

If christian missionaries have been guilty of abuse, as is definitely the case historically, both in India and other places, then that's relevant to this thread. If you don't like the fact, it's your problem.
Denial is a typical reaction, but it's useless. The facts speak for themselves, and in many historical instances are very well known and well documented. The stuff they're doing in India nowadays is just a continuation of the 'tradition'.

But what's more ridiculous still is the fact that christians imagine they have anything to teach India spiritually. The anscestors of these foolish up-starts were, as has already been pointed out, still living in caves when India was a highly civilized culture.
The Brits tried and failed. I doubt US or Canadian or any other missionaries are likely to meet any greater success.
India has seen them all come and go. And still the ancient spiritual culture remains.

The fact that western countries reacted with cash to the tsunami is nothing to do with religion in many cases - it comes from a simple humanitarianism. Brits gave millions - most of them are not christians. Same with other major european countries like France and Germany.

 

God will bring people knowledge one way or another.

 

BBBlake.. you just made a great 'case in point' for outright denial and skirting the issue like your buddy up there.

I know this will come as a big shocker for some people but a lot of Christian Missionaries are excited and think they have a great thing to share with people.
A lot of Indians are really happy about it too and now they have the Gospel.
Wow!
You dont like it - fine.
Nobody can or does 'force' anyone to do anything and Missionaries caught doing that (like the Hindus here) will be exposed and sent away.

I just hate to see antichristians coming in here with missions and using their lies to try and trick or influence people away from making their own rational decisions.

Example: Making up ridiculous (and insulting) stories of 'poor starving needing people' who are being murdered or hurt by these nasty missionaries.
(or forced to do things)

BULLSHIT and shame on you for insulting:

A) Tsunami victims for implying they are so 'weak minded' that they could be 'forced' to think and believe in something because they were 'blackmailed'.

B) Nations like Thailand and others for suggesting they let their citizens walk around starving and begging for help (as if they were some desolate third world brutes)

C) Insulting Christian Missionaries who are simply not 'letting people die or suffer' until they somehow just 'become Christians' (as if that was even possible)

D) Insulting the intelligence of Hipforums readers and thinking you can so easily fool them by spreading ridiculous lies which will make them feel outrage and disgust and win disapproval of Christian orgs.

Now at this point Im just gonna throw out a wild guess but lets just say it sure sounds like someone who is trying to recruit (or KEEP recruits) for THEIR mission and their Religion and is desperately making up lies about the 'other side' who is being embraced throughout countries like Indonesia (example) and someone doesnt like that?

 

I think you must have some difficulty here - this is the Hinduism forum. Your point might have some validity if HH had posted this thread in the christianity forum. I don't think many here are 'anti-christian', as you put it, but that doesn't mean that one has to accept abuses by so called christians, which are not 'made-up', or lies, but sadly true.

I just can't see how you can accuse me of either denial or skirting the issue - I've not denied anything - you are the one doing all the denying. Nor have I skirted the issue, but I think you have. You are unable to offer anything but denial - which is just ridiculous.

My advice would be to simply shut up if you have nothing useful to add to this debate. So far all you've done is engage in repititious denials, and 'skirted around' being personally insulting.
That's usually the way of it with Christians of a certain type - it doesn't take long before they begin to resort to personal attacks, perhaps because they have really got nothing else to say.

On your last point

I've already explained that Hinduism in general isn't a 'missionary' religion. But since I am not affiliated to any Hindu grouop or organization it is a far fetched accusation that somehow I or others with similar beliefs are seeking to compete with christain missions. Sanatama Dharma accepts a plurality of spiritual paths, ways to God. If a christian is following with true sincerity their religion, that is fine. I know of virtually no follower of Hinduism who would seek to 'convert' them.
The problem is that on the face of it, many christains aren't really on a spiritual path at all - if they were, they would focus on removing the beam from their own eye, rather than seeking, through their missions, to remove the speck from the eye of their Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Shamanic brothers and sisters. It shows a great conciet on the part of christians if they think their religion is somehow superior - esp. when they have no knowledge of that which they attempt so unsuccessfully to criticize.

As for hipforums members - I leave it to them to draw their own conclusions.

 

BBBlake, let you give you a helpful suggestion.
Be Sincere.
Dont just reply with what you think is the 'standard antichristian reply' (complete wth the whole 'hypocrite' and 'my beliefs are true but if you say the same then you think your superior to everyone).

Honestly, I dont even think you have a clue what was being asserted originally, what Im replying to and how much Bullshit I exposed here.
Its not "Christianity exposing Bullshit' - Its simply Bullshit that got spotted and pointed out for everyone.

Dont talk to me about 'Well other bullshit by your 'side' once happened somewhere else'
Idiot.
THIS Bullshit is exposed and deal with that or shut the piehole already.

Another thing - dont even talk to me with ANY pride that Hindus are not evangelical because that is a damm shame.
IF you really mean to tell me that Hinduism brings any peace and profit to a soul then you SHOULD AND WOULD be out bringing that good news to anyone you loved.
Muslims follow the most evil religion on the planet and yet I can at least RESPECT them because they believe its profitable and good and put their money where their mouths are by trying to spread the word of Allah.
Good.. I Respect that!
Quite honestly if you really believe you have received a good and profitable revelation then you are a real jerk for NOT evangelising.