Children and nudism

I would never reason with obvious child endangerment open minded or not......where is the mod?

 

Uhh this is so frustrating.

You people need a course in reasonable thinking because you failed to give a response that has any logical thinking within it.

Firstly, what does "Right minded people" mean?

How is this synonymous with "Open minded people"?

If you are "Right minded" you belong in a church that listens to little or not reasoning on their beliefs. If you are open minded then you would see through your emotional outburst to see that STEVE never claimed to MOLEST, RAPE his children, anyone who does so belong in jail. He said he found it erotic and he said that he masturbated in front of his children. He also explicitly time and time again, to no avail. He also said that people who grow up with an uninhibited sexuality, coming from all fronts, not just from some internet site and a few talks about condoms and anatomy in school, grow up more comfortable with their sexuality, LESS likely to fall into the category of early pregnancy, the contraction of diseases that make peoples lives horrible, simple and plain.

THIS IS TAKING CARE OF HIS CHILDREN and OTHERS WHO COME INTO CONTACT, with them in a sexual way. They may even become so sensitive to sexuality that they will be amazing people to psychologically help those with the clear sexual problems that RUN RAMPANT in our society - a society that is presently doing the exact opposite of what STEVE is. THINK Critically, reasonable and without emotional interference about what IS RIGHT or WRONG.

 

Change Happens you clearly haven't understood anything in my last post. 'Right-minded' in this context has nothing to do with teachings of the church, rather the desire to see perpetrators of crimes towards children punished and here it is perfectly compatible with open-minded. You too have acknowledged that jail is the only place for such people.

If you read my piece properly I'm actually giving Steve the benefit of the doubt but also telling it like it is because this is one area you have to tread so carefully and where comments can be taken,twisted and used a stick to beat you with. Did you not also take in my condemnation of the News of the World's naming and shaming campaign?

I'm perfectly capable of arguing in a calm and rational way,better than most people but to repeat from my last post, I make no apology to having emotions when it comes to children being harmed.

One more thing, I know a thing or two about rigid religious upbringings where the mention of sex is tabboo. I also have experience of being a teenage mother, quite possibly the two were linked. My eldest daughter who is now 10 is now asking me questions I would have never dared ask my own mother and I will do what I can to ensure she enters adolescence equipped with all the knowledge to make her decisions in life. If she does become a mother at a similar age to when I had her,then it won't be through ignorance of the facts of life. For what it's worth it's I hope she waits,there are numerous things to be accomplished at that age that were denied to me, not that I'm complaining cos in a very round-about way things panned out ok for me.

 

What? What do you mean "you people"?

 

Changehappens -- Steve was talking about sexual play involving children. It is possible to destroy a child's innocence and twist that child's concept of trust and relationships with a mere look.

There is no doubt, based on what we have learned through clinical psychology, that what Steve is talking about and advocating is harmful to children.

 

I dont think you are going to get much agreement from either end of the "mindedness" spectrum, Your not going to get it from ultra conservatives, but your also not going to get if from some of the gay community, as we know all to well just how clueless parents can be to their childs sexuality, and how much the parent never gets to see not matter how close they are to the child. I agree with you that those closer to avaerage are better growing up comfortable with nudity.

But any kid far away from average, at a certain level of androgyny, temperament or size compared to his/her peers isnt even going to be viewed as a kid by the other kids, especially under 8 . In that case its the other kids one has to worry about, not the adults, which is the kind of stuff just about every parent is clueless about.

Even when it comes to adults, mother of a extra girly 6 yr old son knows far better than the other 99% of mums, which adult males to keep the fuck away from her son. Or older females that think it might be a good idea to try "starighten out " the son

So children and nudism, the argument comes down to parents knowing their kids, You only know what you see, as for the stuff you dont see, Most parents dont know shit

 

"Change Happens you clearly haven't understood anything in my last post. 'Right-minded' in this context has nothing to do with teachings of the church, rather the desire to see perpetrators of crimes towards children punished and here it is perfectly compatible with open-minded. You too have acknowledged that jail is the only place for such people."

Its extremely difficult to utilize such a definition on these forums. I cannot see anyone assume that "right minded" would mean, the desire to see these perpetrators in jail. The word context, is to be utilized to describe a set of concepts, with an overarching similar quality but with a variance in their specific qualities. So for example, if the context of our conversation is dogs and I say I like it when they are blue, the context is DOGS and the context, is assumed so that I do not have to repeat the word DOG after every quality I use to describe them. Context is a tool to communication. I assume you have a different definition of it otherwise you would not have said that it is in the context of a definition.

I must agree, eventually emotional experiences of a situation will arise once a realization such as another pain, becomes existent. However, what I did convey in my post was that emotions reflect what we have learnt previously about a context. In this thread the context was sexuality of children and there were alot of emotional outburst that were not warranted because they are simply reflections of we have learnt. Presently, I agree with both the notion that sexual intimacy with children is beneficial and damaging. I believe that in this society, if a child were to be brought up in the way that nudisteve proposed, I would have to disagree with steve that the complete immersion of his values, would benefit his children. However, in a community with ideals about sexuality that believes sexuality is like food, with no social inhibitions on any type of sexual intimacy(not including rape) Steves way of raising children is the more beneficial way. As humans we seek to be a part of the group, it is a big part of our early experience here, due to a number of psychological things that I cannot grasp yet. What is certain is that the emotional reactions to sexuality would by no means be compatible in a child brought up in the way steve proposes. I would not take that chance. However, I believe nudism would be beneficial in some ways.

"There is no doubt, based on what we have learned through clinical psychology"

Clinical psychology usually looks at the outcomes of rape on children. Not masturbating in front of them. I have yet to hear any studies that have done this considering that no reasonable person would admit to this without having their children taken away.

Another thing is that clinical psychology, like almost all psychology, generate their understanding of mental illness and thus their conclusions about the need for 'healing', by reflecting how much an individual can become an productive, member of their society. The word healing, by no means has to be used to describe something that is beneficial for someone. For example, christians may preach to you that you need healing through god, much like the psychologist would preach that they need healing through a psychological therapy. Whether or not this 'healing' will be beneficial depends largely on the context that the person under examination finds themselves in. This also ties back to my conclusion that although I agree with nudisteve that his ways are more beneficial for his children, in our society they will be hurtful, given the various socio-cultural contexts that his daughters will be forced into.

 

Vanilla Gor-Gor. What part of the context were you talking about.

I imagined that you were trying to show that parents need to be closer to their kids sexually. Is this correct or does it need revision?

Or were you alluding to the social norm that the parents believe they know what is best for their child and that this is extremly hard to change?

If so I agree, this society will always be bound to many socially dysfunctional cultural traditions. I do not intend on attempting to change it, though for my children, as children that will be born into a sustainable living environment with little interference fromt he outside worlds pervasive morality, it will be a beneficial attempt, though difficult nonetheless, to integrate my own sexuality with my teachings of what sexuality is to them.

 

Incorrect.

Early starters, Early developers are going to keep things from their parents sometimes for the parents protection, sometimes cos they are just confused or embarrassed as to why they arent the same as kids their age, or just to avoid being disciplined or not wanting to disappoint the parent. the onset of puberty is like a bell curve, most in early teens, but a small percentage in the 6-8 range, what happens with them and who they target, 98% of the population never gets to see and is clueless

As a parent you are only going to know your kids if you have the ability to read their minds

 

I know several people who have grown up in nudist families, all of them seem like healthy, reasonable people. I am also a nudist, and there are kids around at the various places my family and I frequent. The idea that someone there finds the experience of seeing any of those kids splashing around nude to be "erotic" is beyond disturbing -- it is enraging. I am entitled to my emotional reaction, particularly because it is rooted in my natural desire to defend the innocent and helpless.

Those kids, though growing up in a nudist environment, do not grow up in a sexually charged environment such as what Steve described. As the slogan goes, "Nude is not lewd." Rather, they have a healthier view of the body as a not necessarily sexual creation. It is the thought process of the shame-minded clothes-bound to equate nudity with sexuality, as Steve does.

I agree that children who grow up in a nudist environment have a better understanding of and greater comfort with the human body. But this is not at all the same discussion as finding naked children erotic and masturbating in front of them-- which is a form of sexual predation. I have known several women who felt that their fathers raped them without touching them-- just with a sexually predatory look. And this, after decades, is a betrayal that still hurts and keeps them from trusting people.

 

you people fail to realize the original post was a year and a half ago, from a person who is no longer here, and probably made the whole thing up.
just let it go back to its resting place buried deep in the forums where no one will see it.

 

Very well. This seems wise.

 

Also, what do you mean, "you people"?

 

"I have known several women who felt that their fathers raped them without touching them-- just with a sexually predatory look. And this, after decades, is a betrayal that still hurts and keeps them from trusting people."

This suffers from a philosophical fallacy, even though I resonate with their pain and wish them resolution. The fallacy has nothing to do with anyone but an two assumptions that you make, without any reasoning.

The first assumption that I draw from this conclusion is that in order for these women to have felt like they were betrayed by their father, they must have assumed a number of thoughts that were most likely an outcome of being indoctrinated into our chritianized culture. The first and foremost is the assumption that people are responsible for the way they feel towards someone and thus the way the look at someone. The reason I derive this from this conclusion, is through breaking down the concept "Predatory look". A concept that implies that a person is doing the looking and firstly that they are in complete control of their feelings, sexual or/and any other. The reason it implies this is because of the apparent use of the word 'father' as a causal agent to the womens trust issues, which you concluded as an outcome of the fathers looks.

In light of these apparent assumptions I would have to ask you to show me how it is that an individual is responsible for their emotions, especially sexual ones. And after this, why it is that this may or may not have an impact on the trust issues that the women experience.

After thinking about this, it became clear that if these women had been taught that people are generally not responsible for how they feel, especially when it is sexually feeling, that their sense of being betrayed by their father would be inexistent, in so far as they would not be able to HOLD their father responsible for the 'predatory look'. I believe this and to re-iterate because their sense of betrayal assumes one thing that if critically thought through will clearly show this to be true; betrayal is a feeling that someone, a person, is responsible for the way they have acted towards you. So I do my best to make clear that if a person can no longer believe that a person is completly responsible for the way they feel and act, then a sense of betrayel, an emotion that relies on the assumption that they are indeed responsible for their action, would cease to exist. Bringing this back to why I cant believe in your conclusion about steve, it is just this concept of betrayel and your assumptions about it that make your conclusion an open ended question, which I have tried to expose to my fullest ability. For how could I believe that this 'predatory look' and thus the father be responsible for how they feel, when I cannot yet prove that the father, like others in the world, including myself, are in complete control over their feelings-emotions and actions-thoughts? Surely, it may be clear to you why I cannot believe your conclusion as of yet, for you would have to prove to me why people are in actuality, not imaginarily in control of their emotions-feelings and actions-thoughts.

 

After so much effort I put to generate an understanding that attempts to gain more control over this issue and this silence is all I get in return. This is not an alternative forum, this is a place for people to rebel and not think with their minds, but with the collective mind. TO those silent ones intrigued let it be known that pedophiles are people that almost always have self-esteem issues and poor social skills. They also have reduced activity of the hypothalamus during cognitive sexual development.

References are scientific journals.

Marshall, W. L. (1997). The relationship between self-esteem and deviant sexual arousal in nonfamilial child molesters. Behavior Modification, 21, 86–96.
^ Marshall, W., L., Cripps, E., Anderson, D., & Cortoni, F. A. (1999). Self-esteem and coping strategies in child molesters. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 14, 955–962.
^ Emmers-Sommer, T. M., Allen, M., Bourhis, J., Sahlstein, E., Laskowski, K., Falato, W. L., et al. (2004). A meta-analysis of the relationship between social skills and sexual offenders. Communication Reports, 17, 1–10.

Schiffer B, Paul T, Gizewski E, et al. (May 2008). "Functional brain correlates of heterosexual paedophilia". Neuroimage 41 (1): 80–91. doi:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2008.02.008. PMID 18358744.

 

I guesse fate decides whether we are SICK and PERVERTED individuals that should rot in a jail. Regardless, we will never solve the problem with this attitude. Moving ALong.

 

Conceptual rape is still rape. I feel sorry for you if you can't understand that.

 

This saying is a type of cultural slogans. These are usually an outcome of not rationalizing your emotions and by following emotion instead of reason you are keeping your indoctrinated past ruling your future considerations on issues such as these and by virtue of all the reasoning I have brought to light and made obvious to anyone who can understand he english language, I can only conclude that this will simply reporduce this problem in the future. These types of sayings reflect very similairly to the saying "Its Just Wrong" and "Theres a reason why its like that". You see clearly, yet you have oversimplified the problem and therefore unknowingly you imagine that your solution to the problem is probable and mine, pitiful. However, I ask you one question that you seemed only to address with these cultural notions that I redeem to ask again, do you think if RAPE was RAPE that correlations such as those presented through the scientific journals, are in vein? So after all this substantiated research, you expect this "I have feelings for you and this thing you talk about, is still the thing you argue against will suffice me in my understanding of this issue?" I dont feel sorry for anyone, its useless. I do feel the need to change peopels minds, because my mind would have benefited from it. Now that I have come into your 'world' can you come into "mine" in equanimity. Although it seems cold inside, it is summery with some cool breezes to freshen and ready us for the warmth.

 

Changehappens -- I have been speaking English for over three decades, and writing it for over two. I know the language fairly well. Whatever language you are writing in your posts is barely comprehensible to me. What is your native language?

Also, what do you have against emotion and intuition? Maybe you should make a separate thread to address this, if you feel like discussing it.

 

thank you Standing Seated, there was me freaking out I was kinda thick, this with English being my best and favourite subject at school. I'm glad someone else with a modicum of intelligence hasn't got a clue what Change Happens is on about in his/her posts.

I will say this though, if 'the mind is like a computer' like you say Change Happens, whatever happened to spellcheck?