*sigh* Why do so many arguments reduce to this? Non-Christian: makes a statement or argument against Christianity Christian: Answers Non-Christian: slightly modifies argument Christian: Answers Non-Christian: modifies more Christian: Answers Non-Christian: reduces argument to "Oh yeah, well Hell isn't fair! I don't like the idea of such a place, so your God can't exist!!!" Hmm...now let's reverse this: Christian: makes a statement or argument against non-Christian position Non-Christian: Answers Christian: slightly modifies argument Non-Christian: Answers Christian: modifies more Non-Christian: Answers Christian: reduces argument to "Well, I can feel God in my heart, and the Bible says this is truth, so I know my God does exist!" Non-Christian: [after laughing is brains out] "Are you serious? Let's be rational here!" Yes, let's be rational indeed... Anyway: Well, no this wasn't the original question. But this question was already answered: because for God to do otherwise would be tyrannical . Well I like how you've asserted your own definition, but I simply don't agree. Say God knows ahead of time that John Doe will lead a life of sin, and will ultimately choose, by his own being, to reject Him. Now, God has two options: He can 1) allow John Doe to live out his own life, making his own chooses which will ultimately have their own consequences , or 2) Deny John's existence--as you put it "Nonexistance is not living," and indeed John would keep on "not living" throughout the duration of time he was supposed to be living. Now to the Hell question. Hell is simply one of the consequences of a choice John made throughout his life, that is, John has chosen to reject God, God respects his choice and sustains him in it--John has chosen to reject God, therefore he is actualized in a state of separation from the One he has chosen to reject. (JesusDiedForU actually conveyed this point very well) it's his own doing. Get it?
Kind of a skillfull way to avoid answering my question directly. You haven't answered WHY it would be tyrannical for god not to allow sin and evil. I would assume that forced paradise for all would be preferable to any freedom that would lead a soul to eternal seperation. I'm not trying to be aggravating or anything. The truth is that the questions of freewill and accountability are a few of the reasons why I became an athiest, so I actually am looking for an answer here. I'm going to need more than just "It would be tyrannical." Why would it be tyrannical to have all life as perfect and beautiful? How is determinism more tyrannical than an ignorant pagan unknowingly choosing hell over heaven? (Though I still don't believe it's a choice if god knew where he'd end up before he created him...)
The question is modified yet again...LOL. Anyway God would not be respecting a person's freewill. He would be displaying an ultimate sense of control. He would be imposing His own agenda on ours. This is why it would be tyrannical for God to deny someone's existence soley becuase he knows that person wouldn't choose His ways. Now, to your new question. Why would it be tyrannical for God not to allow evil in the world? Well, first it wouldn't be tyrannical, and second, I never said it would. But let's take this a step further, and say that we were created to have the ability to Love God, just as He loves us. Now, why doesn't God just stop all Evil before it happens? Surely He's Omnipotent, and therefore has the power to do so. First, we should answer what evil is. Evil is parasitical, it is a perversion of the norm. It distorts what is proper to the improper e.g. there could not be sexual immorality without there first being sexual morality. Evil is not a thing, per se, but a bad relationship between things. A tornado isn't inherently evil, and neither is a house on a hill, but a tornado going through a house on a hill, is. It's a bad relationship between a house and a tornado. Now, going back, would it be possible for a creature to love God just as he loves us if all acts of evil were removed? First, what is an act of evil? I would say an act of evil is a display of those bad relationships mentioned. An act of evil committed by a person is sin. So, would it be possible for us to love God, as He loves us, if all sin were removed? A sin is a going against God's nature, an act of disobedience to what He has decreed, so an elimination of sin, is an elimination of our ability to disobey, or to choose against God. So a world where sin is impossible, is a world where one cannot make choices against God. (Your very display of rebellion against God would not even be possible!) So one would Love God not because he so choices, but because he is forced to. Is forced loved true love? I can build a robot that displays all the actions of love but does this robot really love me, or is it only doing what it has, to do? This robot would be bound by a sort of natural law that it must adhere to, it would have no choice in the matter. But a moral law is preceptive in that it tells you not what has to be, rather it prescribes what ought to be. A state of affairs that ought to be, doesn't necessary have to be, there's a choice in the matter. And true love requires one to choose to love, not to be forced to do so. But in God allowing one the ability to choose to love Him, He also allowed the potential for one to choose not to. So going back to your original question, no it wouldn't be tyrannical. God could simply have created a race of robots that had to "love" Him, but such would not true love, and such is not what we were created for. Sorry I don't mean to graze upon the subject so quickly. What you've asked is a very serious question, and a forum could hardly do justice to a full 'answer' but I hope this does help.
Still a little confused, bear with me. God would rather take the chance that I will be forever tormented than to not create me at all? Denying my existence is worse than allowing the possiblity of me being damned? Why allow freewill with the stakes so high?
Not necessarily that He takes the chance, rather it would be immoral (or at least I believe) for him not to allow you your ability to choose, since we are created with a sort of freewill. Being damned is bad, but it would be your choice, your own doing, a product of your own freewill. A denial of your existence would be nagation of that freewill. I don't know, and I'm not in a position to answer that, you'll have ask God that one
Your Bible says that this part of life on earth is just a blink of an eye compared to eternity. For God to allow a person that he knows will end up not choosing him to have a blink-of-an-eye life of free will and then an irreversable eternity in agony makes God some kind of monster to me. GOD KNEW ahead of time, yet God created the being knowing that he was sentencing the being to an eternity of hell... PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Explain to me how can you really believe that, I really want to know, because it simply does not add up to me. I don't believe in that God. Not at all. It baffles me when educated, intelligent people can't explain this to me, but yet they believe it for themselves. Well, instead of having to be "immoral" and allowing no suffering for all eternity upon the beings you created, How bout skipping all of the eternal torment and just not creating humans at all? Whe'd never know what we were missing... Does God need someone to glorify him so much that he creates a system in which the masses of his own creation-- to whom he gave free-will, reason, and emotions-- will be sentenced to an eternity of hell. I know I used a lot of words over and over, but saying eternity kind of makes it sink in just how awful it is. Also I'd like to point out your use of "a sort of freewill" It's not really free at all is it, since the future/our "choice"/fate will occur regardless of any "will" on our part since he knows all that will happen before it happens. Just "sort of" freewill-- enough to make us feel like we're making our own choices, but our individual fates must have been sealed an eternity before our existance. I know I started posting late in this thread, but I can't help piping up on this issue... Sorry for any annoyance. :&
Actually that was well explained, and kind of what I was trying to get at, and I think Shane as well.
Ditto... the only argument I've ever heard to this is that it has to; that in order for good to exist, so does evil.... for Heaven to exist, so does Hell....
But that can't be true because hell didn't exist until Lucifer fell, so.... We've had this book so long you'd think we'd have figured it out by now. Too many discrepencies, interpretations, etc... But let's not stray from SingflowerCat's point, it was a good one.
Believe me, I understand what you're all trying to convey. God knows that a person will spend an ETERNITY in HELL, yet He still allows this person to live, therefore God must be some kind of monster. How could a "loving" God allow such a thing to happen? Why doesn't He just intervene and stop this tragedy from occuring? I understand precisely what you're trying to say. Now please try and take a minute to understand what I've been trying to convey: Rejection of God, is a choice the individual makes, that is YOU, at this very moment, are choosing to reject God. YOU, even know the consequence of this rejection. God respects YOUR choice to reject Him and actualizes you in state of "seperation" from Him. Nothing complicated about it. The choice is YOURS. Now your question is this, "Why does God even allow me to live if I'm just going to Hell?" (a) God created us with a sort of freewill (b)God foreknows those who will and won't reject Him. (c)God allows those who will reject Him to live, because for Him to deny their existence, I would argue, would be immoral. Why? Because (i) we were created with freewill, and (ii) to deny existence would be a nagation of, or would go against, that which God created us to have. So basically God created you with a choice, YOU have the choice, and God respects YOUR choice. YOU choose Him, YOU live an eternity with Him. YOU reject Him, YOU live an eternity seperated from Him. Nothing complicated here. The chooser gets what he chooses. Now a question for you: What about this isn't fair? I believe because it's perfectly fair to me--you get what you choose. If you want to back the question up one step and ask why God created us with freewill, I'd say because He wanted us to have the ability to love Him just as He loves us. If you want to back the question up one level still and ask why He wants us to have this ability and "take the risk" of us not accepting Him, I'd have to say I don't know. This question is beyond me to answer. This is a question I think only God can answer. But regardless, the current state of affairs is completly fair. Because of what I've explained above. Well the choice is yours. He's simply allowing you choose--He's being moral, and the choice to be moral or immoral is now left up to you. No no, not that we "sorta have freewill," rather we a "sort" or a "class" or a "kind," of freewill. I was just pointing out that there are different kinds of freewill, that's all. No, no annoyance
The question isn't why won't he intervene...It's why did he create it to be like this anyways, especially when he knew it what going to happen? Like SingflowerCat said, it seems monsterous to me that he supposedly created hell and lucifer just like he created us, and all this knowing Lucifer was going to fall, and people would start going to hell, etc... Why create people he would knowingly torture for eternity in hell? Why create a world like that? Why create Lucifer to start it all, knowing all this would happen? You just keep beating around the bush with your answer, giving us the same answer every time even though it doesnt address the question. And you keep saying that the question is modified, when you keep modifying your view of god to fit the question. For example, "free-will" turned into "sorta free-will" No one has modified the question, it has been the same question all along, we just have to keep re-wording it becuase you refuse to answer the question how it is.
Is there anyone else here who thinks thinks I've already answered this? That maybe he just doesn't like the answer... Anyway: Well let's see: The question started out as omniscience vs freewill Next, omniscience and omnipotence vs freewill Next, omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresense vs freewill Next, Hell vs ??? Next Divine attributes vs God being "good" etc, etc, etc., Do I really need to go into further detail? Now As far as me "modifying" my definition of freewill. You can look all the way back to posts numbers 53 and 55, make note of my use of the phase "sort of freewill" there. In fact, you can go all the way back to post number 6 (My second post in this thread) and make note of how I pointed out that there are different types or "sorts" of freewill. What have I changed?
Okay, I think I get it now. God knows if I'm going to heaven or hell before he creates me. It doesn't matter. Because I'm a mortal whose fallen (through the original sin of Adam) and commits sin on a daily basis I deserve what I get and should be thankful that God has provided a way out for some. God takes no responsibility at all in this situation. Okay. I think you might have made me more of an unbeliever.
Ummmmmmmmm... Well, I do choose to be moral. I just don'tchoose Christianity since I can't make it make sense to me. I think Christianity is just a tiny part of the big picture... The OT gives us Judaism, beautiful poetry, and words of wisdom; the NT introduced a man we should all aspire to be like. These books were packaged together into one glossy black book called the Bible by man and created the religion of Christianity... the rest is history, and if you look at history some awful things have been done in the name of Christianity. I think you argue this particular point as well as any Christian I've ever talked to... BUTThe Christian answer always is: Well, I guess it's not fair, but you'll just have to be a good Christian and get to heaven so you can ask God why it wasn't fair. I just don't buy it, and this is where I have to respect your strong belief just as much as I respect my strong unbelief. And kudos to you for being so respectful in your posts.
You want to say he knows everything that's happened, will happen, etc...but he can't control it. Yet he created it. He created the situation, knowing how it would turn out, and still created it that way. Why not create it another way? Why create it at all? Sickness, pain, death, hunger, etc...all our punishment for disobeying god, yet God created the situation, not us. God created a tree and said, don't eat off it. God created Lucifer, whom he knew would tempt Adam and Eve. God created Adam and Eve knowing they would fall for the temptation. And GOD is the one who made it wrong to eat off the tree... You say: God was giving Adam and Eve free will. But I say: Right and wrong don't have to exist for free-will to exist. Free will is just the ability to choose. And more on Singflower's and Shane's questions: What about all the miscarried children? Appox 75% of pregnancies never make it full term (this is naturally, nothing to do with abortion). God can deny them a chance at existance and shoot them off to heaven (most christians believe they go to heaven), but will let people be born every day that he knows will go to hell? Or why aren't we all just in heaven chilling with god now? Why does he make it possible that anyone go to hell? Why let it exist? You can have free will without hell... I just don't get why a god would make us on earth instead, create hell, then send most of us there. And then claim that he want's us all in heaven. It just doesn't make sense. The whole "god" story doesn't make sense to me. It's so contradictory. How can this book and religion be inspired by some devine being? There is just no way.
No, that's not what I said. Let's have a look at the two possibilities: Possible world 1 Create a world that has no evil. No one could choose to sin, or rebel against God in anyway. Creatures wouldn't be free to choose God's way, rather they'd be forced to since there would be no alternative. Creatures would be robots in that regard. Possible world 2 Create a world that has free Creatures. Creatures would have the ability to actually choose God, or choose an alternative. Creatures would be free, but in allowing this freewill, there would also be the potential for evil since not everybody will choose God. Also, re-read post #103 Yes, God created the situation, and said what ought to be. However, He gave us the freedom to choose to obey, or not to obey. This is a privilege, so why cry over it? Make your choice, and deal with the consequences. In neither case is one's existence denied. Again, please re-read post #103 Because we have the freedom to choose. You can desire for a child to take one course in life, yet allow him to take another. I, of course, believe the opposite.
