Canada could be the first country in the developed world to decriminalize polygamy.

What are you on about?, I said 16 cos I thought that was the legal age in Canada, and probably is (wont bother Googling)

16, 18 whatever, isnt the main issue about protecting young girls.

Whether accurate or not, the perception is if polygamy is allowed its mainly going to be a bunch of old pervs flying in a harem of mail order brides

 

My reaction would be that the people should be shot... it WOULDN'T be, oh of course they do that, they're polygamists...

Could you please show me one place anywhere that is says that making polygamy legal will make it okay to molest children.

That was larger, because it is the most important part here.

By this basis, everything should be criminalized, because people who molest children and other such things will use ANYTHING they can to defend their actions.

You continuously keep saying you don't think the two have anything to do with each other and then explain why you think they do.

 

I don't think you are arguing against polygamy, or suggesting that child abuse is a result.

Okay, let's look at this from another way.

The way in which you are arguing, is the same way that some people argue to keep weed illegal. As "Yeah, weed should be legal, but that would make it harder for cops to bust gangs, as legalizing it would allow them to claim some legitimacy.

There is nothing about legalizing polygamy, that is going to effect wether or not religious cults are protected. Nothing about it will put children in danger. In fact, considering that there is no legal basis for a polygamist family in our society outside of the protection that religion gives it when included in a cult, legalizing it would protect children.

It would protect them from being taken away from parents who in all cases are great parents, except they don't choose to let their love be bound by religious dogma.

Think about it... as it stands right now, if a polygamist family wants to live their life and have any sort of freedom from prosecution of the law, their only option is to join a cult that claims it as a religious right.

Making it legal would change that.

Is it more harmful for a child to be in a household with three (or more) loving parents who all help raise that child or to take that child away because the parents are in an 'illegal union'?

Everything you keep saying about this, should be aimed at the source of the problems you are speaking about... the laws that protect relgions the way they do now...

This isn't to say that religions should be outlawed... people should be able to worship who and what they want...

But they shouldn't be immune to the laws that each of us as individuals live by.

How often do you see the headline "Priest Arrested on Molestation Charges"... I would almost bet you see that very rarely... at least in comparison to "Priest Accused of Molestation"... Why is that? Why are people having to SUE churches in order to get child molesters dealt with? Why aren't the just arrested as any non priest would?

Look at the headlines when that putz from the flds was running from the law...

Which did you see more often? "FLDS leader wanted" or "Polygamist Leader wanted"?

He doesn't lead the polygamists... he leads the FLDS (or did, whatever)...

On the subject of him... why was he allowed to marry underage girls in the first place? The laws that protect the religious cults allowed it...

Nothing to do with polygamy...

Any example you can point to where a polygamist is involved in child molestation, I can point to 100 cases (at least) where they aren't...

Just to make sure we're clear Heat... I don't think you are arguing against poly, I don't think you are saying that is causes child abuse... My only objection is that you keep repeating that they are related to each other...

One, has nothing to do with the other.

 

Tom I think we are arguing both sides against the middle.

!00% agree and why I feel it should be legal to have a union that is recognized. I do not feel that it is wrong as a lifestyle nor is it harmful to children to be raised by those who practice polygamy.

If we take family units of today we are all closer to being in a very broad sense far more on the polygamy side than we are nuclear. With divorce, remarriages, blended families, alternative lifestyles, geographic distances it all has made for changes that lean more toward polygamy than ever before.

I do not differentiate between these two. They both USE a system to justify their behaviours. Be that a church or a lifestyle that they manipulate to do as they wish and to be legally protected in some cases and buffered from the direct results of their behaviours.

They should and need to be made accountable by the laws of the land regarding their behaviours. Not sheltered by the other laws that allow it to continue.

I agree with you that this has nothing to do with polygamy. Except that those who are doing this openly cite that it does. They use this as a defense. These are not my observations they are legal maneuvers made by those who use the cover of so called living with the freedom have a right to polygamy for their purposes.

Is it wrong, of course it is.

They are only related to each other becuase those that wish to have the rights mandated make sure that it is. They can not sell their lifestyle any other way and instead have attached it to polygamy for their own purposes.

The only way then it could be done is to eliminate that polygamy be recognized on any type of a religious grounds ( I use religious in a broad sense here) otherwise it will continue to be used by those who already do. How do we legislate then that if there is any religious doctrine involved they no longer can also claim polygamy?

The problems are not with polygamy family units. Well at least not in my opinion.

Polygamy is and has been lumped together with those who they should not be. It has happened because those who bring cases forward are the sects. It is perception and the cases that have been brought forward are unfortunately prominently exactly those.

You do not hear the cases of your friends, family etc who are before a court or facing discrimination instead you only hear of the wing nuts in society.

Until those with their own agenda no longer claim that they are a representative of polygamy lifestyles then it is unfortunately linked as far as perception of those who are looking in and not living that lifestyle. Is that fair, I already established my feelings on that, no. It is the perception though.

 

I never saw the problem with polygamy in the first place. If people wanna marry a million people, pssh, have at it. I remember when I was a kid and first learned of polygamy, I couldn't understand why people talked about it like it was a bad thing. I associate the creepy culty guys who marry lots of kids with creepy cults, not with polygamy.

 

Perhaps I misunderstand what you were refering to when you said this, but this next bit was my first reaction to reading it.

Heather... A polygamist is someone who has more then one spouse. A member of the FLDS is a member of a religion.

I fall under one of those categories... and I despise the other. Why do you insist on trying to tell me that I am the same as them?

It isn't recognized on any type of religious grounds... the RELIGION ITSELF provides that protection within their teachings, and thats the difference...

If you simply somehow (impossibly) made a split in the public perception of the two, it wouldn't do a damned thing to end the RELIGION from using a different one of their beliefs to justifty it... The problem isn't polygamy...

Until those with their own agenda no longer CLAIM to be??

So, until a bunch of fucked up religious freaks decide to stop claiming to be polygamists, you are going to insist that MY CHOSEN LIFESTYLE is related to child molestation?

I really hope you re-think some of this...

 

Sorry, I missed this...

What I am on about, is that it ISN'T just about protecting young GIRLS. It is about protecting CHILDREN, MALE, FEMALE or OTHER...

As for the perception... I surprised at how this needs to be pointed out, but the perception in many circles used to be (and still is in some) that homosexuality is about a bunch of pervs who want to fuck every little boy they see....

Get the point?

 

I agree with you.

 

I agree with tom in that there are already laws in place to protect minors. Legalizing polygamy would not change this.

Religious sects that use polygamy as an excuse for child abuse don't need legal unions to take child-brides. When a religious sect is living outside the perimeters of society it doesn't really matter if a marriage is recognized in a court of law, does it?

my problem with polygamy is I've only seen it represented as a fanatical religious practice which is both abusive and sexist. I am sure that it exists in other more mainstream cultures that I am just not aware of, however.

I personally think one man at a time is more trouble than he's worth, but different strokes for different folks

 

Heather,

I don't know what to say to you here...

You have just repeated the exact same thing over and over and over again...

When one person makes a claim to something, anyone else who makes that same claim, shares in everything else that first person does, whether or not it has any basis in fact.

I have no argument for that without being down right insulting, and seems I don't think you are doing this on purpose, I don't want to do that.

 

2 wurds ....

tax break.

 

I get your point.

But its the kind of thing where everyone says stuff to go along with the masses, but its not the real way they think.

First theres the numbers game, yeah there might be the odd perve who wants to fly in a bunch of young boys, but the perception would be the number of them would be small compared to the number flying in a bunch of girls - so this issue is mostly about whats going to happen to young girls

Secondly, someone starts talking to you about a older guy with a bunch of young boys - what kind of older guy jumps into your head first? You are going to think priest or republican not the types with 6 packs in the gay pride parade


As I said in my first post, there are scenarios with polygamy where should be legal - as in the case of elderly widowers, but thats put on the back burner cos of fear of what might happen with young girls

And its analogous to gay marriage, with that at the forefront everyone craps on about the "sanctity of marriage" but its really that people have more of a problem with gays marrying or raising kids than lesbians. If you could seperate legislation for male and female homosexuals, they'd get different levels of support from the general public.

 

I had to do a debate on polygamy in high school. I wanted to be on the side for polygamy, but my teacher decided to challenge us and put me on the opposition. I lost... unanimously (with ~20 students in the class)

 

Tom, I thank you for the respect that you extended and I hope you know that I would do the same.

I think that we share the same views on polygamy. Read before you decide.

I believe that it should be decriminalized and recognized as an alternative lifestyle and that anyone who makes a choice to be a polygamist should be free from prosecution and protected from discrimination.

I believe that polygamists are not child molesters or abusers simply because they are polygamists. I say this as I am sure that there are some who may be, just as with any other person in society, but that has nothing to do with being a polygamist.

I believe that being in a polygamy relationship is not harmful to children or family and instead may very well be an advantage as I said before.

I do not think that it is a choice made that is harmful to anyone nor to so called society and should be protected by law.

I also feel that by decriminalization and recognizing polygamy that as a society we will hopefully with time have acceptance and understanding of this lifestyle and with that comes support.

I think we both share a deep loathing of those who run organizations under false pretenses such as FLDS. The loathing is for what they do to children and the abuse.

I owe you an apology.

I combined the two topics as one and I should not of. I think it caused confusion and led to misunderstandings. To be fair I can understand why and I take responsibility for not having drawn a clearer line between the two topics and further to having combined them.

I still have the concerns Tom about those type of organizations but they are separate from polygamy and my support of that.

My apology for messing up your thread.

I hope our courts do the right thing and over turn this law.

 

Could I have more than one husband?

 

Will that mean people can leave a partner and just go get married again without divorce? How would that part work?

You might meet a great guy and get married, only to find out you're one of many. There would need to be something like all spouses have to sign the marriage license or something, or it's not a legal union.

At least if this were legal, it would be documented, so cults like Bountiful would still be illegal, because there's no way they'd bring a 14 year old girl in to sign a marriage license with a 50 year old man. They'd do their shit in hiding like always.

 

Thank you Heat...

Could you? Some might argue that you should have two, it might be more fair for them.... lol

In terms of actual paper marriages yes, although for a lot of people that would be a moot point anyway. But any legality of a paper marriage would also carry over to common law marriages.

Them main point for me anyway, is that as things are, you can't go in and say, there are my spouses as next of kin... Much like without equal rights for gay marriage a person couldn't list a same sex partner as a spouse on legal forms.

In terms of someone marrying more then one spouse without their other spouses consent, I don't think it would be a huge deal to change the bigamy laws to be worded so that it applied to that situation. Something like "If a person enters into a second (or more) marriage without the consent of their current and active marriage partners, it is invalid under the law and punishable... blah blah blah..."

 

Let me know if you ever decide to go that route :coolgleamA: