CAMPBELL34 VS. LIBERTINE :The War To Settle The Score...

It looks like it's not gonna be at all.

Does that mean I "win" by default?

I hope not. I hate winning by default.

 

Good questions Libertine. I think many christians do not know how to support their faith with right arguments. I think to your questions there are answers but this conversation should be taken to concern also existing of anything. Then there comes the arguments of can anything be without something before, where comes a question about who made everything, and then the question about who made God, where we make the conclusion that others say that God is something which has not been done, which has been forever, and others say cant the same be true about the world. I really wait how you to continue your debate.

 

Don't worry campbell will reply. He has been busy with his job.

 

Sorry for the late responce, had a few things going on. Let me first say that the first time I heard the voice of God, it was a still calm voice, I did not see Him then, and to this day I have never seen Him.
God does not do whatever we want. God will fulfill a need, but He does not usually fulfill are desires.

The hide and seek by God as you would say has a definite purpose. For those who really want to know God, they will be forced to seek Him out, and for those who have little care about God they will not seek Him at all. That is how God finds those who really desire Him. For they are the ones who search for Him. Jesus said if you seek Me with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all soul, you will surley find me.

My first statements were vague and general because most opening statements usually are, where as finer details usually come latter.
I have at least five stories which I will begin to tell you about starting on my next post. The first story will be about the first time I heard the voice of God, and what happened afterwards.

 

Although, campbell34 has given me an answer on the question of the vocal expressions of "God" (he apparently talks in a calm, audible voice), the main question remains unanswered. "Does a God even EXIST?"

So far, you have only given me anecdotal evidence which could be used by anyone in any belief system. Nothing in these anecdotal posts about one's personal experiences with "God" that could give us any logical reasons to think that you have discovered much of anything except that religious epiphanies that always seem to vary from person to person. They give no logical reasons at all for why others should follow in the steps of those who have found personal comfort in finding Jesus or Allah or Vishnu or whatever deity may have been involved in the epiphany.

I went from Christianity to atheism, where I have found a much more satisfying happiness than I had ever experienced in Christianity. If your anecdotal evidence is reason enough to follow in your steps, why wouldn't mine be reason enough to follow in my steps? You see, that is the problem with anecdotal evidence. It doesn't prove anything.

Believers and nonbelievers are both guilty of using anecdotal evidence to promote their personal viewpoints. Believers will relate stories of those who were wallowing in the degradations of drunkenness, drug addiction, sexual promiscuity, etc., etc., etc. until they "found Jesus", who then turned their lives around and brought them personal fulfillment, and nonbelievers will tell stories of ex-Christians and ex-preachers, who saw through the phoniness of religion and found fulfillment in skepticism. Both are examples of anecdotal argumentation that prove nothing.

What we are asking here is to defend a claim of the theist: "God" Exists. First, "God" must be defined (and I believe campbell34 has reaffirmed his belief in what I once believed as the concept of "God"). Secondly, objective statements need objective evidence. If "God" exists objectively, it is only reasonable to ask for "objective" proof. Thus, the ball is back in your court, my friend.

Oh and one more thing, just for the sake of my personal curiousity, does "God" sound a bit like the painter Bob Ross (who had such a soothing voice, he would nearly put me to sleep).

 

sorry, id just like to interject real quick the law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction...I know we can say, if God was never created, then maybe the universe was never created. How does one explain the universe being uncaused when someone uses Newtons second(?) law as an argument for the universe's cause?

 

Why don't you be more specific and break it down, Colours?

If you believe that Newton's Second Law PROVES the "cause" of the universe (and I'm assuming you mean that to be "God", otherwise why post here?), then lay out the argument.

I'm game.

 

I don't know, thats why i asked . Because my two friends used it on me, and i didn't know how to answer, and could only come up with, traditional laws of physics dont necessarily apply to the universe and beyond

 

Your answer was good enough, man.

That Law describes kinetics, not cosmology. Your friends need to go back and reexamine their argument.

 

Here, let me "answer' your question:

Your question (simplified): How does one explain the universe being uncaused in a world where cause and effect is law?

My answer: How do you explain God's existance being uncaused? The universe itself defines what "cause" and "effect" is, which means that on some grandiose scale, the universe as a singularity is very likely to not actually be subject to a duality such as "cause" and "effect." If the universe itself is subject to causality, why is God not? I mean, if God can be interpreted by a being in a cause/effect-ridden universe, than there must be some medium through which God can be interpreted on a causal chain, which means whatever logic God is part of must have some form of compatibility with a causal logic system; therefore, God should also be causal in some way.

I mean to draw attention to Occam's Razor ... it makes more sense to say "the universe just existed one day, or has always existed" than to say "some god just existed one day, or has always existed, and then he created the universe." I fail to see why some higher power must exist to "create" the universe. I argue that the universe itself as a singularity is a higher power, it is just constantly changing form (evolving and/or devolving, per se).

 

Hikaru zero said things that I think Campbel34 should try to answer. They are the questions libertine is asking too, when you are discussing about does God exist. But can we be sure that universe has always existed just because it exists today, and on what bases christian argue that God has always existed? I think it leads to the matter of revelation. Isn't it that without revelation of the matter neither can say for sure that either universe or God has always existed? If both libertine and campbell34 both accept this, then you could go further from that argument.

 

am I the only person who thinks that this is absurd?

religion requires faith, by it's very nature you can't debate it......

it's an impossible position because there is nothing you can point to and say, "well fuck, that prooves god is real"

this is one of the reasons people become athiests, christians who have no idea what the fuck they are talking about over reach so far and fall on themselves.....

 

this was not always considered to be true. many great christian theologians have considered it to be quite possible to prove the existence of a god through reason. see the variations of ontological & cosmological arguments.
stop telling campbell and libertine that their debate is pointless; i for one am interested in seeing how the two of them fare. campbell has always upheld his christian pov strongly, and libertine is a well-read ex-christian. if anything, we can all observe and learn a few things about religion and the technique of debating.

let's let them teach us a few things!

 

Hikaru has made some good points about the cause/effect of "the" universe and "God". Theologians from centuries back have tried to prove the existence of "God" with such arguments as the Cosmological argument (which Hikaru has crippled, if not refuted here), the Teleological argument, the Ontological argument, the Moral argument and several other techniques...all of which have been debunked, refuted or exposed in some form by modern science and/or reason.

The truth is, that once a mystery gap of a volcano is filled with "volcano gods" or thunder is said to be the "voice of God", our progress has come along and filled the gap with a natural explanation making the old way look foolish.

Every former mystery (even those which have been filled previously with a supernatural myth or superstition) that has now been explained, has always been explained naturally. At no time has the proof reinforced the supernatural explanation.

 

Yes I believe God exist, and that is why I'm pointing to my own personal experiecne with Him. Way back in the year 1971 was the first time I heard His voice. I had just finished a job interview which had gone pretty bad from the start. The person doing the interview was more than a little rought around the edges, and to make matters worse, when I got up from the interview and turned around I was faced with three doors with no indication as to which one led out. Naturally the first door I opened had to be the broom closet. I closed the door and looked back at the interviewer. He pointed to the first door and told me that's the exit. As I was leaving he spoke up and said, Mr. Campbell don't call us, we will call you. I knew that would be the last time I saw that guy. When I got home I felt kind of bad about the way things went and was heading up to my bedroom to lay down for a while. When I got about half way up the stairs, I heard the voice. It spoke my name, and then said, "You did everything but pray about it." Now I don't know why I did not stop and think about hearing a voice, but I seem to of centered my thoughts about praying about getting a job rather than the voice I had just heard. So rather then go to my room I walked down the hall and I entered my parents bedroom. I then kneeled down by my mothers bed and prayed this simple prayer. Jesus, I know you know how many hairs are on my head, and you say you know of every bird that falls to the ground. If that's true, then you know I have been looking for a job for the last two weeks, and have found nothing. Jesus, if you are who you say you are, then you will get a job for me, and from this point Lord I will leave it in your hands, and I will give you the glory. Thankyou Jesus, amen. While still on my knees, and by the time I said men of amen, the phone right next to me was ringing. When I picked up the phone I was still on my knees, and the man on the other end of the line ask my name. He then said he had just been sitting at his desked and picked up a paper that I had filled out two weeks earlier. He wanted to know if I would like to work for their company, and if I could start work monday morning at eight A.M. I could not believe what had just happened, but realized that the voice was from God, and He was just waiting for me to ask Him about the job. It was from experiences like this when I began to see the invisible hand of God working in my life. In this story, God took care of a need. If the God of the Bible is interested to such a minor point as finding me a job, then He must be interested in everyones life as well. Religion is man made, and it should never be a substitute for the real faith that can only be found in Christ. From the time I became a Christian at the age of eleven, I never questioned God, I just always believed in Him. Yet, I never knew that He could, or would speak to me in a voice that I could hear. As I said, God fulfilled a need for a job, in my next post, God tells me of a future event.

 

That's a very inspiring post, Campbell34. =)

Do the two debaters mind if I interject? I won't until you both agree.

 

It's ok with me Hikaru Zero.

 

Sure.

 

If you WANT to believe in God, then any good fortune in your life can be easily seen as an act of god. i say dont give credit to a mystery in the sky, and let the good times roll

 

You have missed my point entirely. I did not think to pray about getting a job until the voice first mentioned it to me, and after I responded to the voice by praying to God for a job, and at the very moment I said Amen, the phone began to ring, and that job was given to me. A little more going on hear, then simple good fortune. Gods timing, was perfect.