barefootin' & school

That would be nice, but freedoms have been taken away in the U.S.

http://www.sheldensays.com/Com-three.htm

'Among the most recent incidents comes from Toledo, Ohio where school officials have engaged in perhaps the most absurd forms of zero tolerance. According to a New York Times story (Jan. 4), on October 17 a 14-year-old girl was handcuffed by the police and hauled off to the local juvenile court. Her "crime" was the clothes she was wearing: " a low-cut midriff top under an unbuttoned sweater," which was a "clear violation of the dress code." The school offered to have her wear a bowling shirt, but she refused. Her mother came in and gave her an oversize T-shirt, which the girl also refused to wear, saying that it "was real ugly." According to the story, the girl is one of the more than two dozen arrested in school this past October for such "crimes" as "loud and disruptive," "cursing at school officials," and "shouting at classmates" and, of course, violating the dress code. Such "crimes" are violations of the city's "safe school ordinance."

Perhaps the most infamous case occurred in a small town called Goose Creek, South Carolina. Videotape from surveillance cameras shows dozens of students, some of them handcuffed, sitting on a hallway floor against the walls as police officers watch them with guns drawn and police dogs sniff backpacks and bags strewn across the hall. A report in the Los Angeles Times noted that parents were outraged over the incident, saying that the police went overboard. No drugs were found. The author saw portions of the videotape and it looked like the Gestapo with about 10 or 12 armed police roaming the halls yelling and making the students lie down on the floor.'

 

Referring to the above post... am I the only one who's really worried about this trend, with cops marching into schools and arresting kids, often for ridiculous reasons as mentioned? What the fuck is wrong with this country that we'll allow this???

 

I'm sure you will get more cooperation from teachers if you present your case in an intelligent way.

Start by using "WEAR" when you are talking about clothing. "WHERE" is a preposition, indicating location.

Come on, dude, try.

P.S. It's "sandals," not "sandles."

-Jeffrey

 

I agree with you, and I share your obvious anger over it.

This is the same establishment that is making it a crime for kids to go "bang bang" with their fingers on the playground, as though someone could get hurt or killed by that. It's the same establishment that won't let a kid bring in a photograph of his older brother who's serving in the military defending our country and our rights, because the picture has the brother holding a rifle.

If you want an indication of why this is happening, and where it is going, consider the effort to demonize guns, gun ownership, and gun owners.

Kids are being indoctrinated to being subjects of the superior power of the State.

It can't be stated any simpler than that. How often do you hear nowadays, "Only the police and the military should have guns." Oh, you mean like it was in Nazi Germany? Or maybe in those shitholes of the world like Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Congo, Jamaica, etc.? Places where the disarmed populace is utterly powerless to defend itself?

The more people (kids) become indoctrinated that only the government should have the ability and right to use force, the farther we sink into a hole we may never climb out of. You've all read "1984," right? Who wants a government that dictates how we are supposed to live? Who wants a government that has a monopoly on force? How could the people fight back against a government that long ago saw to it that everyone shirked away from owning any kind of weapons, either because they were forbidden, or because it was made out to be socially distasteful?

You're watching it happen right before your eyes. And every time you find yourself agreeing that the People have no business having guns, or taking part in shooting activities, you are pushing us further down the road to a time when we have NO rights and the State has ALL the power it wants.

-Jeffrey

 

You are 100% right, man. In the last year or so I have completely changed my stance on gun ownership and laws, I used to be in favor of more restrictions and so forth (not banning them, but still), but realized that when the populace is unarmed, only the government and criminals have guns, and the two end up being pretty similar in thugishness. The Nazi Germany situation really affected my way of thinking, also reading about the Swiss and how every citizen must by law own a gun, and know how to use it. This is why they haven't been invaded in centuries and have been able to stay peacefully neutral (obviously there's more to it, but it's an aspect anyways). And the more I read and hear about OUR OWN government's questionable activities and certain stipping of rights, the more I think we all will need guns soon.

And to be on topic...when the revolution comes (as it surely will if our government doesn't back the fuck off) I'll fight barefoot.

 

We can't blame everything on gun control. It's not as if kids are not allowed to go barefoot or dress casually at school because of gun control. Adding guns at school isn't going to solve the problem. The trend in the U.S. the past 20 years has been toward conservatism and authoritarianism, and it's not because of gun control. It's been a general trend in the U.S. It's a religious and social intolerance that people in the government have and are trying to impose on everyone. The government has made people think that pot is like frying one's brain like an egg in a pan. Then they have the police raid schools looking for pot. It's a psychological job that they do on people to dumb them down so that when they are treated in an authoritarian manner they won't get upset about it.

 

I think that some of this is just a bit overreacting. Im sure these things happen someplaces but they tend to be rare and when they do happen theres usually a larger reason involved than is apperant on the surface and even if these students are arrested they are probably just taken down to the police station and questioned and might stay the night or so and then theyre probably let go. I think most of this has to do with students being overly defiant with teachers and with issues involving drugs at school and just some violence going on. A police officer cant just march down to a school and arrest someone just because theyre wearing something thats against the school policy, they gotta be doing something more than just that. I just think theres more to this issue than is visible here.

 

Yes they can, dude. It's called zero tolerance.

 

Is that all? I feel much better now.

 

Okay maybe they can, but not legally, its unconstitutional. They gotta actually be breaking some law, you can just get arrested by a police officer for just anything.

Compared to what could happen yes I think thats getting off pretty easy. Im just saying that im sure what they do to you isnt as bad as this article claims it to be. It just seems a bit too far fetched for my tastes.

 

There are local laws in place that make this possible. Read a little and them come back and talk when you are informed. Minors have very little rights of their own under the constitution. People in the U.S. have been dumbed down so much by the establishment that they aren't even aware of what's happening. They have no sense of hippie values either, even though they go through all the motions. It's senseless even trying to talk with people sometimes. It's the police and school systems that are over reacting, not the ones who are concerned about this pattern.

 

I just find it hard to beleive that schools and police can do such things most of the time. Most teachers around here get in trouble for even trying to do what is right much less what isnt so I hardly can imagine they can do such things to students and not suffer somewhat because of it. Police and schools gotta follow the law like anyone else does.

 

yea i hate zero tolerence, my school any plagerism is 3 days in school, even as small as a sentence.

 

this is zero tolerence in a different vein. some years ago in Georgia (US) the school was having a Coke day, one kid wore a Pepsi tshirt and was suspended for 3 days. seems Coke (artificial, simulated, watered down Pepsi - LOL) was "supporting" the school district by sales of coke via vending machines.

 

The gun issue was a tangent, I wasn't saying it was the whole deal.

 

What are you guys talking about minor's rights and the Constitution? The rights of minors aren't restricted by the constitution, except the right to vote. I don't know of any others. States have laws and local governments have ordinances which vary from location to location. What police or schools can do in one area can differ from others. And these laws aren't always constitutional..not every law that is passed is.

 

I just beleive that under normal circumstances a school or the police cannot just arrest or punish a student for just anything. The fact that some of these things are happening is because of two reasons. 1, there is more to each of these cases than that article makes known or these police and school officials are doing these things and either the parents know nothing about it/dont care or theyre too scared to do anything about it. If the stuff mentioned in that article was really happening and somebody actually did something about it then such things would stop real fast. I think whoever wrote that article wanted to show the police/school in a bad light so they mentioned things and just enough about these things that would get that intended result.

 

Interesting! So, in your view, in countries where lots of people have guns, such as the US, Iraq or Afghanistan little abuse by government and criminals is known, but in most European countries, where gun ownership is generally much less widespread people suffer oppression by criminals and the government?? Face reality, the US has one of the highest rates of violent crime among rich industrialized countries, and recent curtailments of citizens' rights with the pretext of terrorism have mainly happened in the US (your poodle Blair also tried something like that), and NOT in countries with much fewer gun fanatics. By the way (to mention something on-topic, as well), neither in Germany nor in Switzerland nor in any other country in continental Europe I know, there are such senseless rules at school banning going barefoot or other things (and if such a rule was introduced, I don't think people would accept it, they are not as tolerant towards senseless rules as they seem to be in the US). Americans - people in a country awash with weapons - certainly shouldn't blame their problems on a lack of weapons.

OK, I really dislike gun fanatics, but as long as they stay on the other side of the Atlantic and - above all - don't come here with their weapons, this problem at least does not concern me personally. But what I really can't accept is if American gun fanatics use wrong claims about Switzerland to support their ideology. I'm Swiss, and I can't accept this gun propaganda. What is true is that everyone who SERVES IN THE ARMY has to keep the gun they are given by the military at home, and they have to practice shooting once a year. All men are obliged to serve in the army (the first time a few months, then a shorter time per year until they are 30 if I'm right), slightly more than half of them actually do (many manage to get out for medical reasons, I did, too). But the decisive points are
1. People are not allowed to use these guns for anything else than military purposes (actual military service and annual practice), and the ammunition is sealed.
2. Despite of this, both accidents and misuse happen from time to time. Therefore, in a survey a majority of the population said that they are against military guns being kept at home. This is just an anachronism, and I think it will be given up sooner or later.
The fact that people who serve in the army keep their gun at home is basically a left-over from times when people thought war could break out any time. However, the American idea that is was something good if many people carry around guns or that guns are an acceptable way to solve political conflicts is almost absent in Switzerland. So, Switzerland really does not provide US weapons fanatics any arguments.

There is another false argument for weapon ownership using Switzerland: There are many firearms in Switzerland (not only because of this army anachronism, but also because laws about buying weapons are not strict enough, this will improve when Switzerland becomes associated to the Schengen treaty of the EU, there will be a referendum this summer), but still the rate of crimes committed with weapons is relatively low. So, some say gun ownership isn't that bad, after all (they cannot use the US for their argument because there gun ownership is widespread and the rate of crimes committed with guns is extremely high). That is a typical way of misreading statistics. The overall rate of violent crimes is low in Switzerland (probably, it's even lower in some Scandinavian countries, but it is lower in Switzerland than on average in Europe and much lower than in the US). There are other reasons for that, but what is important is that if the low overall crime rate, which cannot be explained with accessibility of guns, of course, the rate of crimes committed WITH GUNS is relatively high in Switzerland (right now, I can't provide any links, but there are statistics on the Internet). A majority of people is in favour of stricter rules about gun ownership (especially a vast majority of women because it is mostly men who own guns and there are cases when men threaten there wifes or girlfriends with guns when there are conflicts), and if the association to Schengen is approved this summer, the regulations will become a bit stricter.
So, if Americans want to proclaim a strange ideology according to which there should be as many guns around as possible, they may do so, but they certainly cannot use Switzerland in support of this ideology!

Is the US on the verge of civil war? Luckily, if some people think they can replace political struggles by shooting around, they will be among those who die first. But such lunatics could still kill many innocent people (didn't perhaps McVeigh also "fight against an oppressive government"?). So, I suggest that these weapons fanatics either shoot themselves or each other and leave it to other people to fight political struggles in a more sensible way. People who shoot around are easy to eliminate and a vast majority will support it such dangerous individuals are imprisoned or killed in a fight. On the other hand, people who have more important abilities, have some personal integrity and can convince other people are not that easy to handle for an oppressive government.
(Of course, you could introduce the argument of an absolutely totalitarian government against which only armed resistance is possible, but that is very unlikely in today's or tomorrow's US. I could imagine a non-democratic regime there, and there are quite strong anti-democratic, authoritarian tendencies right now, but a dictatorial regime that could come to power would still need the support of quite a substantive minority of people. Imprisoning and killing people who shoot around would certainly be supported both by this minority and a significant part of the majority who is against the dictatorship, lunatics with weapons would strengthen such a dictatorship. On the other hand, even among the minority who supports the dictatorship in principle, not all kinds of oppression against people who fight the dictatorship in a more sensible way, without arms, would be accepted, and if the dictatureship goes too far, it can loose its own base.
And even if someone seriously wanted to plan armed resistance in case it becomes necessary and sensible, owning arms would be a very small part, it would be essential to build up networks, gather information etc.; a resistance group with guns, but nothing else could be crushed very easily.

I don't mind if I haven't convinced any American gun fanatics, but please don't use wrong claims about Switzerland for your arguments, stay in the US and don't use your weapons!

 

So, what, you'd have an unarmed populace? Hey guess what, when guns are illegal only criminals will have guns. So you're basically defenseless. And if the government tries to pull some totalitarian bullshit, what are you going to do to stop them? Fight a guerilla war with bows and arrows???

The number of guns a country has does not equate to gun deaths. Switzerland and Canada I know both have a lot of guns (I don't know about the rest of Europe), but have low rates of gun deaths. Using unstable countries like Iraq and Afghanistan (both occupied nations fighting either insurgents or former regime supporters) is cheap and as an argument counts for nothing.

I'm not a gun fanatic, I don't own a gun, and don't really plan on getting one. Throwing insulting terms around is immature.

By the way, it remains to be seen how unlikely a totalitarian government in the US (or elsewhere) is. The peak oil problem could destabilize the US government and economy enough for an already too-powerful central government to really take over. Our rights are already being violated under the lie of "security". It's not too far to imagine a government instating a military rule to "keep order and security" either from foreign or domestic problems in the wake of an economic collapse. From what I've read, there are hundreds of empty prison camps being built all over the US and Canada. Why aren't they being used, with our prisons already too full? It can only be for imprisoning our own people during a crisis.

Not that this is a for sure thing, but it's definitely a possibility. We'll just have to see how things go.

 

I don't mean to take this thread too far off topic. My argument was about how easily schools are calling the police on students who don't always conform. NBC news just showed a video of a 5 year old girl in Florida who was arrested at a kindergarten. She was upset about something in math class. She was swinging her arms around but not hurting anyone and was in another room without the other children. They showed the video of three police officers cuffing her hands behind her back while she screamed and cried. That was difficult to watch. Even if these incidents are infrequent, people should be outraged by it.