attention christians

agreed.

 

Okay... so speaking from the Catholic religions point of view [my parents raised me Catholic] they would usually see god as the almighty. But many catholics also see "the Devil" as the cause of all the horrible events that take place in our lives....
Going with that, I read a post once, maybe it was a quote from something they've read I don't remember but it brings up an excellent point:
It said something to the affect of, either God is not all good, or not all powerful.

Think about it... if in the Catholic religion "the Devil" is a true real thing, then the Devil should not make any sort of difference in the world, considering Catholics see God as the Almighty...
On the other hand, if he is Almighty, and the Devil has no participation in the painful happenings throughout the world/our lives... Then, God possibly can't be "all good"

Sorry if I've stole someone's quote, but I loved the point it made and I just had to use it.

I only say Catholic by the way, because I'm not going to act like I know every christian religion and what they believe, because I don't. The only Christian religion that I'm fairly educated with is Catholic, seeing as how I spent hours and hours sitting through "Religion Class" every monday out of traditional values of the family being shoved upon me.

 

Ooop, okay, gee you've convinced me boy howdy. Yes indeedydoo I'm just gonna be a big fat atheist from now on. Oh yes you have shown me the light whoopdydoo. hahaha

Insofar as wars are concerned God is a red herring. The wars fought in the name of God would have been fought in the name of something else if God hadn't been around, or at as many very similar wars would have been fought anyhow, which is really just as good or just as bad.
Because a war or wars have been fought in the name of something does not mean that that something is bad. We are in Iraq right now in the name of ending terrorism and in the name of democracy. Bullshit excuses both, we are really there in the name of oil, profit, and international dominance, but I digress. This does not mean that democracy and ending terrorism are bad things, it means that those concepts have been co-opted by the ultra powerful for their own personal ends. The same can be said of wars fought in the name of God.

Oh, and World_of_Dan, in the Holocaust the Jews were put to death simply because they were Jews, of course there was lots of propaganda put out by the Nazis about international Jewish conspiracys and shit like that but in the end it was because they were Jews. It was not because of their religious beliefs. The Nazis didn't give two shits about what the Jews believed, most probably didn't even know what the Jews believed. This is a common mistake the people make but it is an important one. It turns the Holocaust into something more akin to a mass inquisitorial hearing, which it was not by any streach of the imagination. It also implies that the Nazis had an interest in the beliefs and identity of the Jewish people, which clearly they did not. But I digress again, I'm done now.

 

alot of people don't know this but the Jews were referring to christians as "notzi's" as far back as 400AD when the talmud was put together, 1500 yrs before the third riech existed. Don't believe me? Do a google search on "notzis".

Since it seems like I'm talking to myself in here lately I figure it doesn't matter who I offend.

 

I don't personally accept that Hitler was a religious man in any meaningful sense of the word.

I agree fully - nothing can justify war ultimately. But I don't think there have been that many wars that were fought purely on religious grounds - perhaps someone could furnish some examples.

Humans are the causes and actors of wars. If God doesn't exist, then clearly that is so, and religion has simply been a pretence - which again calls into question if there has actually bever been a single purely religious war in history.

 

WWII was not fought over religion though...everyone knew of the Nuremburg Laws, and the many people around the world [including the canadian prim minister at the time] thought it was a good idea to segregate and limit the rights of Jews...it wasnt until far into the war that we discovered the Holocaust [death camps etc.]

WWII started becuse Hitler neeved"living space" for the Great and powerful aryan Germany/Europe, and invaded Poland, with his eyes on the Ukrainian prize...then the Britts and French stepped in and attempted to stop him and the rest is history as they say

 

I think the idea is that God allows the devil some power in this world.

 

You know...I think I was taught some kind of demented Catholocism...because we were never told anything except that the devil existed....tempted Jesus...and he resisted evil......and that you should "reject Satan"...but by Satan meaning "evil" not actually a person... whenever I read all these complaints about what the Catholic church teaches...I wonder how come I grew up Catholic and never heard any of them...accept "love one another and love God"...but not too much of that crazy dogma.......

 

I disagree - take the 2nd world war - if the allies had just sat back, we'd all be talking german now. War is not the best way to solve a problem, but I think it can be justified.

You see, I agree with you, obviously, since god does not exist, it's not his fault there are wars, but that does not change the fact that wars are started 'in his name'. And that's what we're talking about here. Yes, there have been many religous wars. Many religous conflicts.. Look at the middle east, do you think thry're killing each other over there because they enjoy it?

 

They have been doing it for so long that it would certainly seem so, Dan.

No really, they are killing each other over a worthless strip of desert that each claims "God promised them". Ironically, He only promised it to them, I haven't seen a title transfer, a tax stamp, a deed or anything proving that He actually was true to His word.

Were I either Israeli or Palestinian, I'd get a damn good real estate attorney and litigate.

EDIT: Damn, I can't believe I solved the Middle East Crisis just like that! Henry Kissinger is a pussy! You should all elect me King!

 

With all the blood that's been spilled on both sides and with all the inequality even if they found some way to iron out their religious differences I wonder if the fighting would stop.

Sort of like if everybody in this forum woke up tommorow believing the same doctrine do you think we'd stop arguing with each other?

I doubt it on both counts.

 

In the case of world war II I agree there was no alternative to fighting, but it was the aggression of the Nazis which caused it - that is what is unacceptable.

In the middle-east, I think it's a political/territorial struggle. If some ursurp the name of religion and say thats what there fighting for, they are clearly simply using it as a cover.

 

#1- There IS ALWAYS an alternative to fighting, with the possible exception of one being initially coerced by another party.

#2- The USA was not initially coerced by the Nazis. They choose to fight.

I am not arguing the ethics of this decision, but rather disputing your point that the USA had to fight.

 

I dont know if the post is for me or not,, but just in case it is,,, I appreciate your uniqueness and your ability to speak your thoughts. I know you have no way to trust what I say but I do know He is out there watching over me. No offense taken,,

Tj

 

Pearl Harbor?

 

GERMANY (i.e. Nazis) DID NOT BOMB PEARL HARBOR.

The initial coercion was brought on by Japan.

After the US (backing the UK) attacked several German U-boats, Germany declared war on the US. The US initially chose to fight Germany first.

And the debate is not about whether it was a "just war", but whether or not the United States had to fight the Nazis (as was stated prior).

 

(Not sure if it was for you anymore either ... haha)

I understand that you (and others) may be convinced, on virtue of personal experience, that God exists. Just want to point out, that the personal evidence you may have in favour of that conclusion is, at best, on shakey ground, since it cannot be relied on 100%.

I just also would like to point out that, I have no qualms with someone with that kind of experience, when a person tries to force (or impress) upon another beliefs based on personal experience, that's where I have a problem. Me no likey. Not saying that's what you do (you probably don't), I just want to express myself on that issue, since that's what a lot of people do.

 

My take on this is that the USA entered the war mainly in order to prevent the Russians taking the whole of Europe, as they inevitably would have done otherwise. That would have left communists running all of Europe. Not something the US would have liked very much.

 

Can any of our experiences be relied upon 100%?

 

Okay, this is how I learned it went:

Germany and Japan had an alliance going. Therefore, if one of those countries was ever attacked, the other country agreed to wage war against the attacking country.

Germany's U-Boats started attacking American supply vessels (which were under the Lend-Lease Agreement where they lended armaments to Great Britain, but not troops) and British vessels with American citizens on it.

The U.S. told Germany to basically STFU and go away, they didn't.

Then, Japan attacked the United States, and we retaliated against Japan by mobilizing our forces and launching an offensive in the Pacific.

Germany then officially declared war on the United States, by the agreement of the alliance treaties they had in place ...

Followed by the United States declaring war on Germany in retaliation, of course.

Nope. That's exactly my point.

Our experiences can only be validified by having those experiences again; but even with repetition, there is no 100% guarantee; just look at the Matrix movies, for example.