Attention Christians for Bush

For some people, its easier to create 'blocks' against spiritual understanding because, otherwise, they would not be able to escape the 'comforting' belief there is no authority, judgement, reward, accountability or reason to live by that troublesome 'Faith and Hope' business.

Its better just to believe that we eat, drink and then we sleep forever. (for some)

 

I agree that many, self included have put up blocks but not for those reasons. Mine were cuz it goes against all rational, logical, critical analysis. I find chaos, or the absence of some meaning to life far from comforting, and have even been awake for days at a time, desperate to find meaning to personal tragedies.
Faith for me now is easy, I luckily have been drowned in logic defying events to the point that faith is a poor term for how I feel. When hit enough times with a sledgehammer, eventually the point gets across, no matter how blocked or stubborn one (me) is.

 

Three times BlackG is jiving with the Brocktoon.

Im hopping off this crazy train before it runs through the frozen lakes of Hades.

Brocktoon retires!

 

Hey, I only agreed with your statement, not your reasons for making it.
That is only a partial agreement. Okay.
I hope we are clear on that.

 

Well i didnt expect you would be able to rationalise common sense thinking, you bigot.

 

ahh much better, sociopathic liar

 

Falwell is Southern Baptist and Robertson is Pentecostal, neither of which tend to be Calvinist. If you have evidence that these men are "Calvinist to the core," please present it. Regardless, though, there is no logical connection between sotierology and political philosophy. Nor is there even a strong statistical correlation.

 

My thoughts exactly. I too love the message of Christ and wonder why we all can't be a little more Christlike. A while back I picked up some poetry/prose by K. Gibran on the life of Christ. His peaceful and insightful writing style captures all of the love of Christ without forcing Jesus upon his readers as the saviour of humanity.

 

How can anyone claim to admire Jesus' teachings while ignoring his repeated claims to deity that got him killed? As C. S. Lewis said, he left us 3 options for deciding who he was:

a raving lunatic
a pathological liar
God incarnate

"Great moral teacher" is not a logical possibility, considering all that he said.

 

Alright I'm back

I sure can.

Who did you talk to about these questions? Did you even talk to anybody or did you just let them simmer in your mind? Every honest person runs into serious questions, but questions alone don't necessarily lead to an abandonment of his or her current "religion."

But, as you've already admitted, God is a loving God. Love requires one to do the right thing--even if the right thing doesn't result in a "warm and fuzzy" feeling--and since God is just, the right thing for him to do is to deal with matters in a just way. Reguardless of whether or not you like or agree with certain conquencences has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the matter in question. You're free to like and dislike what you will, but to equate your disgust of a particular state of affairs with it's falsehood is very bad practice.

And I'm sure there are people out there that do even crazier things. Do you intend to convince me that there are crazy people out there? Perhaps even some Christians whose cognitive faculties aren't working correctly? With this, you've find no quarrel from me; I'm completely aware that some people just aren't playing with a full deck. This, however says nothing for the truth of falsity of Christianity as a system, only that there are those of questionable deportment who pactice it.

There sure are, but this doesn't deal with Christianity at all, only the behavior certain professing Christians.

I understand this completely, however, you haven't given any rational reasons why. You've complained about the conduct and practices of some proffessing Christian, and grumbled about one particular doctrine of Christianity, but you haven't even begin to explained why Christainity is false! You seem so concerned with your disgust of Christianity that you're forgeting to examine to see it's even false or not.

Ok...now, which one of these passages make a belief in Hell essential to one's salvation, that is, which one of this passages says that one must first believe in Hell in order to be saved?

 

Hey, you're back!!! Hope you had a nice trip.

Well, you've done a fine job convincing me that not all Christians are the same and that I was raised by and with some of the craziest.

However, I still reject Christianity as a whole.

That is because my piece of critical thinking equipment that I was blessed with finds Christianity to be too narrow, exclusive, and un-loving to be The Way. I simply don't believe in Salvation through Jesus Christ and no other as the only way. "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." And it seems to me that most Christians do believe in hell. I can't fathom a God who would send a majority of his creation there. Are there lessons one can learn from Christianity? Sure. Do I think it is the one true religion? No way.

And it does all boil down to faith. You believe the way you do out of faith. You can't show me God or prove your theory in any way other than a way that uses faith as its cornerstone. Faith- the (something?) of things hoped for and the (something of something?) not seen? I forget the biblical definition of faith, I'm sure you know it.

At the core of all your beliefs you believe sight unseen in a God who inspired men to write the Bible for future generations and who created a plan of salvation at the moment of the Fall, and all of human existance is about the fulfillment of that plan.

At the core of all my beliefs is a mental image of the whole world surrounded, protected, and sustained by something. Who am I to say what that something is? I have no proof. I have some ideas and pet theories, but at the base of everything I believe or wonder about is Faith. I Believe that even though I can't prove it to you (the same way you can't prove anything about God to me or anyone else) whoever the creator and sustainer of the universe is would not limit itself to one narrow religion called Christianity.
And that my friend, is simply what I believe. It's not out of fear.

I spoke with my parents, youth leaders, pastors, friends... Then I began buying books on religion and reading all I could get my hands on. Some things made sense and some things didn't, but I learned a lot in the process about different religions and about myself.

If your God is so loving, why did he create the system he created in the first place? Come on... not one person has ever, ever, ever, ever been able to help me out with this one. Sure, once the system is in place, he has to be Just and all, but he made the system. How all-loving was that? It doesn't compute. I don't like it or agree with the consequences of Christianity, and I agree that my opinion doesn't make it true or false, however, I can't even accept the system at all as true. It's not like I am saying, yes, I believe in God that created the world with a plan that will "save" only a minority of creation, and I don't like that so it must be false. I don't believe in that God or that creation-salvation plan at all. So I don't like it, but more than that I don't believe it.. I don't believe it first, then I don't like it. My disgust with the state of Christian affairs is not directly related to my opinion that it is false.

I have examined it. And it simply doesn't ring true for me. I know that there are millions of wonderful people who wholeheartedly believe and find immeasurable joy in Christianity. The whole concept of that God simply won't find a comfortable spot in my bones... my whole being rejects it... I'm sure life would be different if I could believe it. But that's not who I am.

Okeedokee, no scripture that I know of makes a belief in hell essential to ones salvation. But that doesn't change the fact that plenty of preachers use the hellfire and brimstone message to scare people down the alter and to their knees. Admit it that most Christians do believe in a literal hell. That they are saved from.

Yes. I am saying I can't believe in a God that would send the majority of His creation to Hell. I would not want to live my life with belief in that kind of God. I don't believe it's true. The fear that keeps me the "way I am" is a fear of living in a universe where the ultimate in goodness, God, is actually not good at all. In my world, God is all that is good and beautiful and pure and without evil...

Oh, you silly, You and other believers don't have to be scared of Hell, but other unbelievers who have not yet accepted Christ as their personal saviour would be. I can't believe you won't just admit that Hell can be a fear based motivator.

 

Only if you take everything completely literally.

 

Yep, I’m back. Thanks for the greeting!

Well I'd like to believe that I possess some critical thinking skills, and that perhaps you have erred at some point in your reasoning process. Anyway, I think we run into some problems here. Christianity is too narrow by what standard? Who decides what is “too” narrow and what isn’t? Is there a fine line? What about un-loving? Christianity is un-loving by what standard, and who decides this? Now I do agree that Christianity is not inclusive of other contradictory religions, but who says "The Way" can't be exclusive? After all, it would be logically impossible for there to be two contradictory ‘Ways.’ And who says “The Way” can't be narrow? Who says it can't be un-loving? Does the "The Way" have some built-in criteria that prohibit it from possessing these qualities? Is there some inherent contradiction? Now, of course, I would argue that Christianity isn't un-loving, but how do you conclude that it is not possible for "The Way" to be un-loving? Logically “The Way” could possess any number of non-contradictory qualities even if those qualities weren’t in anyway pleasant or comforting.

Again, why don't you believe this? Is it too exclusive? But isn't it entirely possible for there to be only one Way? If Christ is the way, then all other contradictory ways are excluded. Perhaps it really is as Christ said, maybe He really is the way the truth and the life. It is logically possible and the pressing question here is why don’t you believe in salvation through Jesus Christ only? I’m willing to contemplate and chew on your ideas so long as you tell them to me. I understand that you don’t believe in Christianity, but let’s move from the what you believe, to the why you believe it.

Why?

Ultimately yes, a person must believe something. First principles are groundless and ultimately everybody has “faith” in improvable assumptions. If someone could neglect to take a stand and somehow avoided placing “faith” in something, then he or she could know nothing at all.

At any rate, getting back to your quote, you say I can’t show you God. Well why is it that you take empirical (relying on the senses) observation as the only means of obtaining knowledge about God? Why must I show you God by some empirical means in order for you know He’s there? The very nature of this requirement renders God unknowable since God is Spirit (John 4:24), and spirit isn’t empirically observable. Your requirement is too exclusive since God is excluded from the get go. Now perhaps it is as Romans 1:20 proclaims, that God makes Himself known through His creation. Maybe the formation of the universe, meaning, morality, and knowledge all point undeniably to the Great Creator and Sustainer of life, the triune God of the Bible.

As for a proof, I don’t think I can prove anything to you since proof is person relative, however I think I can show that Christianity makes sense of the world and ultimate reality, were as other worldviews simply reduce to absurdity, which is inconsistent with reality.

The biblical definition of faith “pistis” has to do with trust and assurance, and it tends to be evidential in nature. An example is Peter appealing to an empty tomb as the assurance that Christ had risen from the dead—that they could have faith that Christ had risen since the tomb where He once lay was now empty. With biblical faith one has assurance which allows them to trust.

For the most part, yes.

True, you can’t really prove anything. I can’t “prove” that God exist, just as you can’t “prove” that you really are a female. I don’t believe there are any 100% proofs. Only thing one can do is provide evidence. Still, this doesn’t stop one from living their day-to-day life. So the topic here really isn’t about providing a proof, but about an examination of each other’s evidences along with an evaluation of the implications of each other’s interpretation of the evidence. And indeed, you do have your beliefs, and your reasons for your beliefs. I simply don’t believe that you just believe what you believe, in regards to God, for no reason at all. You have your reasons; it’s not just blind faith.

I went through a similar questioning period, only the more I began to question and learn, the more convinced I became that Christianity was the only way. Perhaps it helps when you not involved in the more crazy fundamentalist churches.

Is it not an act of love for God to create you with the freedom to choose or reject Him? Why did God create the system? I don’t know God’s personal reasons, but you have been created in His image, with the ability to show true love. You are not forced to love Him, but can choose to do so…or not to do so. You’ve been given a blessing, and without it, you would have no means to even reject Him!

I want to believe you, I really do, however you can never explain why. Why don’t you believe in it? Because it doesn’t compute? What doesn’t compute? Where’s the problem?

Why doesn’t it ring true for you? What problems are there other than the problems that arise simply because you don’t like a particular idea?

Why does something need to find a comfortable spot in your bones in order to be true? Why do you reject it?

Well first, if there is no scripture that makes belief in Hell essential to one’s salvation, then it false to a say a Christian who doesn’t believe in Hell is a fake Christian. And it still stands that there are those denominations that don’t believe in Hell. And there are those who attend denominations that do believe in Hell, eventhough they themselves, don’t.

Second, neither did I, nor would I deny that some preachers use the “Fire and brimstone” message. Is this practice right or wrong? I don’t know, probably depends on the situation. Does it get new members into the kingdom? Probably very few. I mean, it didn’t seem to impress you very much

Third, to be “saved” doesn’t necessarily mean to be saved from Hell (although it does entail this), rather it refers to salvation or deliverance from the clutches of the sinful fallen state, which actually doesn’t happen in this life time.

Then you’re simply denying yourself to courtesy of observing matters objectively, since if the universe really were under the control of evil tyrant, you could never know this since you’ve simply chosen not to accept that as a possibility. Is seems to me that perhaps you already have a pre-constructed mold that you expect God to fit in. Which I think we all do, and it takes much time to lessen the effects of these preconceived notions.

No, I simply deny that “at the base of it all Christianity boils down to fear.”

 

How about qualified, interested, popular candidate for the position of King of the Jews, campaigning tirelessly on a 'love' platform?

 

Perhaps because I've done so much traveling and have seen the world as being so much bigger and vast and different than I thought it was when I was wearing my Christian specs. Different cultures thrive without any belief whatsoever in Christianity... I cannot accept that those whole cultures will perish.

Maybe because I've studied other religions... Most religions just seem to be an attempt to describe God and offer insights for how to better live. That's what I think of Christianity. It's just one of the many religions that man has created to help define or explain God. Man seems to have a need to do so.

Why I believe what I believe:

I guess for the same reason you believe what you do.

It makes sense to me, and it feels right. I can't prove it, except for how I feel about it inside. Now is all we know for sure we have. We create little personal heavens and hells for ourselves here. There may well be an afterlife of some sort, but I don't feel that it's full of pain and punishment for some and eternal bliss for others. What a sad, sad, morbid thought.

If Christianity was the only way, I think perhaps God could've been a little more clear about it.

But I don't.

I think all religion is an attempt to bring God closer to man, make him/her more understandable, and help to create a code of ethics/morals for society.

Because it is too exclusive and I feel that the God of the universe would not create a plan just for a select few. I guess I'm just way out there with my views on spirituality. That's honestly why I don't believe it. It just seems crazy. To me.

I think that the Bible was written by some folks with some great inspiration and theories about god. I could have easily written a statement like the one in Romans 1:20. I believe all of creation originates from the one eternal force, or spirit, out of which all is made. The formation of the universe, meaning, morality, and knowledge all point undeniably (to me) to a great spirit of Love from which all things exist. Not necessarily to the triune God of the Bible.

That's a pretty lofty statement. Last time I checked reality was somewhat absurd. Christianity does a nice job of tying up a neat package. Gives you a 7 day beginning, a miserable middle, a terrifying end, and an eternity with an option of smoking or non. But to say all other worldviews simply reduce to absurdity is absurd in itself.

Do you really think a man died on a cross for the sins of all mankind? And that if we reject that, all hope is lost?

Because it's like believing the the Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny.... It's an Epic Fairy Tale, wrapped up in a bunch of little books MEN decided to bind together to make the Bible. The problem is that in order to believe in Christianity you have to throw out Everything Else. And the baby with the bathwater. I think that there is too much to learn from the Everything Else to take Christianity so literally as to think that it is the only way.

I feel like I'm answering all of your questions or statements with the same answer. Nonetheless, here I go:
Christianity sits well with you. You believe it. I have a friend named Sumi who is Hindu. It sits well with here. She believes it. Well, from both of those religions I can find small truths and helpful hints for life. But neither one seem to me to be absolutley believeable as the One True Way. Both of you are comfortable in your respective religions, but neither are religions I can believe wholeheartedly in.

I guess the main reason I reject Christianity is because it is too narrow. That's my biggest argument against it. And of course I could be wrong. The same way you would admit that there is the teeniest tiniest chance you could be wrong. I've found what is comforting to me in my spiritual life and beliefs. And I'm still on a quest for more knowledge and deeper understanding and enlightenment.

Oh, brother. Come on! Do you believe the universe is under the control of an evil tyrant? Is it because you've simply chosen not to accept that as a possibility? Or perhaps because you reject it as a plausible possibility after brief examination of all internal "evidence" (how you feel) and external "evidence" (this beautiful creation we're destroying.) I didn't construct my mold for God first... First I broke the Christian mold I started with-- then I sought knowledge through studying, meditation, prayer, and observation of nature and my view of God came together bit by bit and beautiful piece by piece...

 

1. I believe that Yeshua Ben Joseph did live in the holy land 2000 years ago.
2. I believe that guardian angels have saved my life at least 5 times.
3. I believe that prayer works miracles.
4. I believe in miracles.
5. I believe in magic.
6. I don't want to learn sorcery, or put curses, or cast spells on people.
7. I don't want my future told by fortune tellers.
8. I believe in the person, not the faith, or nationality, or ethnicity, and all are just as worthy of heaven.
9. I believe in an after life.
10. I don't believe in heaven and hell.
11. I believe that the blood washing away my sins is nonsensical, and if it is true, I still would decline, as I wouldn't pass the buck off on him for my sinse, I'll pay for my own sins.
12. I believe that anyone and everyone who is good is on the right path, for them.
13. I believe no one can tell me what path I should be on.
14. I don't know about God, and it is not worth wondering about to me.

 

I think you may be missing one of the underlining messages in my last post. It is entirely possible for Christianity to true, and that by very implication every other contradictory religion would be false. Since it's a possibility one must show that this possibility is either 1)completely false 2)completely true 3)likely false 4)or likely true. Now this is where I find the problem in you replies, it's obvious that you affirm 1 or perhaps 3, but your reasons for doing so are inadequate. Let's take your main reason as an example:

Problem #1 there is nothing contradictory about the truth being narrow. I mean, let's look at the situation critically. If the truth is the truth, then ALL other alleged, contradictory truths would necessarily be false. For example, if it is the truth that I am in Southern California right now, then it must be false that I am in, say, New York. If that one assertion about me being California is true, then EVERY other contradictory claim is false.

Now back to Christianity. If it is the case that Christianity is true, then Christ really is the way the truth and life, and by implication, every other contrary alleged truth must be false. So the truth is always narrow in that it's inclusive only of those things which do not contradict it.

Problem #2: You say Christianity is “too” narrow, implying that there a line it crosses. But what is “too” narrow? Can a truth be narrow just not too narrow? How does one know when something is too narrow? Isn't this just a subjective judgment? But if it is merely a subjective judgment, then you have no right to dress it up as an objective truth. And if the truth really is what you would subjectively classify as “too” narrow, than all the deeper understanding and enlightenment in world wouldn't bring you to the truth since you've already disquantified it as being “too” narrow from the get go.

So than as it stands, you have yet to show how/why Christianity is false. I contend that the formation of the universe, morality, knowledge, and meaning all point to God. Which of course brings me to:

Question 1: How does one acquire knowledge about this eternal force/spirit, or more specifically, how have you acquired knowledge about this eternal force/spirit?​

Question 2: How does morality, and meaning point to this force/spirit?

Question 3: Does this force/spirit have personal qualities i.e. is it a personal being? On the one hand, you state that the formation of the universe, meaning, morality and knowledge all point to this spirit of Love. This leads one to believe that this force/spirit is an intelligant, rational, moral being i.e. a personal being. But on the other hand, you refer to it as a “force” which is impersonal. So is this force/spirit a personal being, or an impersonal force?

...And let's get something straight here about the nature of “proof.” Just because I say I can't prove anything, doesn't mean that I can't falsify or show to be true certain notions. I only mean to say that proof is person relative. That I may, for example, find many proofs that affirm Christianity, but others may view these sames “proofs” as unconvincing. I can offer proofs, I just can't 100% prove something to you.

 

I am a Republican Christian and as a Christian sometimes you have to choose between two evils. The real evil in this country is the cornerstone of the Democratic party platform. ABORTION. America has murdered 40 million of it's own citizens, and Bush's war will never equal that number. This slaughter has to stop and Democrats could care less about stopping it. For whatever you might say about Bush, he is the first and only president to sign into law a bill that would stop late term abortion's. It is clearly points out in the Old Testament that an unborn child is as human as any human that is already born. This nation has blood on it's hands and Christians cannot support a party that will keep the death mills running. Human life which is a gift of God should not end up in dumpsters. The Republican party took the high road when they fought to end slavery, and they again are taking the high road to stop abortion.

 

Yes you will, and President Bush is the first and only President to sign into law a bill that would stop late term abortion's. What did the Democrats do, nothing. Abortion is the cornerstone of the Democratic party's platform. Their cornerstone is cemented with the blood of 40 million American children. Bushes war will never even come close to that number. If there is anything funny about this whole situation, it's the fact that Democrat's can't unite. Statistics have shown that Democratic woman have about 30% more abortion's then Republican woman. What the Democrats have yet to realize, is that the future demographics indicate that there is a major shift taking place in this country. After 40 years of abortion on demand, it is becoming apparent that the Democrats have killed off their voting base. Even if abortion was made illegal today for the next 20 years Republicans will see their ranks swelling, while the Democratic voting block will shrink. Read the article 'The Cradel Will Rock.' The twisted and corrupted one's are those who call
themselves Christians and embrace the slaughter of the innocent. Republican's took the high ground when the fought a war to end slavery, and they have taken the high ground again fighting to end abortion.

 

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Words of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way , which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Words of Jesus Christ.

When I was 23 I experienced Demons who feared Hell. The one Demon spoke out and said he would rather be destroyed than to burn in Hell. True story.
A couple of us present heard his screams and another woman saw him burning on the floor. If I did not believe in such a place I believe it now. If you really seek Christ, He will reveal himself to you. The fact is most people will not give God the time of day.