atheist hell

By your definition taking a drug does not effect consciousness then either, it would be a simple change in personality.

 

Personality and consciousness are not the same thing.

Would you say a slug has a personality? It certainly is in possesion of consciousness and awareness as evidenced by it's interaction with it's environment.
Does a slug posses self-awareness, who knows and it is impossible for us to determine if it does.

 

how is ingesting a drug not in the realm of brain chemistry?

 

thedope:

Life is, but for all practical purposes, yes. Consciousness only attains its own life in self by way of the body.

 

Odon:

lol
Well, for one thing, our idea of an other is not absolutely nothing. But to end the so-called problem of ..er..'differentiating' the dead; Fact: Everyone is alive.

 

Where did I say that? I said essentially you are confusing or more precisely co-mingling consciousness with personality. They are not the same thing.

You stated "By your definition taking a drug does not effect consciousness then either, it would be a simple change in personality"
Which frankly has me confused.
Where and how does the idea of personality even come into play in this discussion of conciousness and whether is survives the physical body/brain?
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant.

 

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GB remember that all sensory input as well as internal thought are processed by the organ, brain. If you damage or alter it's chemistry, the resulting output will be different, but the "one" receiving the output would appear not to be altered.

The concept of consciousness or awareness that I am referring to is that something, mind, soul, spirit, gas bag, whatever, is receiving the output that brain delivers.

You can change the channel on your TV and alter the output, but you, the observer haven't changed. You can adjust the color and brightness to further alter the output, but you the observer still are the same.

That is how I picture the brain, it sorts, prioritizes and assembles the input and produces output. Physical damage or chemicals can alter the manner in which brain does all these things and thereby alter the output, but from all my experience thus far in life, the observer, whatever you may choose to label it, remains untouched, and just observes altered output by the brain.

 

"Our idea"? aside from you who else?
Let me get this straight: So when you die you are actually still alive?
I think, perhaps, you have your wires a little crossed.
"The dope" thought is that, it seems, that we continue on because others remember us, and those that we don't know or who are not remembered are "other" the "others" are just floating around somewhere minding there own business and nobody bothers them. I've probably characterised is point a little wrong, and if he wants to reiterate his point for us, I'll read along with you.

 

I am not proposing an afterlife. I am saying that life appears coincidentally with death.

In referring to Russel's statement that nothing of his body or ego shall remain,
It has been hopefully demonstrated that the bodies constituent elements, though not necessarily coherently arranged, still exist,"something of his body" still exists. The ego of an individual is a social currency built up over time and certain aspects of it are absolutely determined by others. They would testify to your reputation. As such "something" most definitely remains of his ego.
These are the statements I am making.

In addition there is no state of being called nonexistence.

And finally, the dead have nothing to report.

Mumbo bloody jumbo sounds impressive. I did not call that an afterlife. I have not called anything an afterlife.

There is more than just a bio to consider in this famous case. The man shared his mind and it was recorded. We share our thoughts. "I", is an abstraction of the mind which is naturally abstract and that abstract mind is a common state. The "I am" I call myself is the same "I am" you call yourself.

As you say the ego is a human technology and it exists by virtue of an abstract mind. That mind is shared.
As a question to you, if consciousness has not been shone to consist of matter, why should it be considered tethered to the physical body?

Yes, out of sight is out of sight, dead or alive.

Identity as we assess it is a social currency.

Mind and death are coexistent, death is beyond the perception of mind, therefore mind transcends death as death transcends mind. These are energetic expressions that transcend anthropocentrism.

Huh?

 

Odon:

lol I was being generous. Whoevers it may be, an idea is not absolutely nothing.

I never said that! Scientifically speaking, everyone is alive.

It's always 'perhaps' with you people! You should think of my wires as uncrossed, if you can, it's better for my overall health!

Do you think it possible that death could one day cease to be a fact of life?

 

I wasn't 100% sure you appreciated what was being discussed.

How does that relate to what we were talking about?

The "others" are dead people nobody knows enough about or we know nothing of. The Dopes premise rests, it seems, on people knowing something about a person...when we don't they are "others"...the "others" are dead, sir.

No.

 

thedope:

When you say you, is it ok if I can mean me? Odons identity is one thing, but we're all sharing these days. lol

I think I'll answer anyway. Some may think it rude, but you're no dope thedope.

Consciousness is not shone to consist of matter for it is its own light. It is considered bound to the body, firstly because we can see it comes of it, but more importantly, because we want it to be.

 

If these others are truly, as you maintain, they whom we know nothing of, then the 'others' remain in question. They may as well be the unborn. And there's no need to call me sir, even if you don't feel we are of one mind

Fair enough, and I appreciate your being straightforward. In one sense I completely agree with you. Death of course remains to our history.

There is something in me however that is unable to dismiss the possibility that consciousness is capable of evolving to be able to hold the matter it sprang from to itself indefinitely. A state where time is ended in mind, as that is the only place where we perceive it.

 

That's what the thread is about, though.

OP: I feel I would continue to experience things after I die

 

The "others" are not metaphorical concepts, they were born, they lived their lives and they died, it's just we know nothing about them.
The unborn have nothing to pass on and nothing to be remembered for.

I was just being polite...jeez.

Perhaps you have been watching too much science fiction.

 

Let's all be honest with ourselves. There is nothing for any of us 'after life'.

Is that a good enough reason for us to turn the world into a party?!

Those who want to die, is there no-one who could change your mind? lol

 

Odon:

We must know something about them to know they lived and died. Anyway, enough of that. Everyone is still alive. If I happen to die, you may safely say that I wasn't everyone, or, that I was, only I wasn't able to keep it up.

Shit. I knew I shouldn't have brought 'them' up. There'll be an outcry now about their supposed right to life! lol

We made it to the moon but it was dead. We've got to make it to earth. We've just got to.
(When I say we've got to, I mean it would be really really nice. Really! )

 

I am the walrai etc.

I have considered the very near death of my wife. By very near I mean I was physically very close to her when she died as I was administering cpr. My senses were on high alert. At the very moment she died I felt a thin whisper of a breeze rise from her body and pass through me on the way to, somewhere, and I suspect that the veil between here and where ever is that thin. So there is reason at least for me, to think that some energetic aspect is not bound to the body, not because I would have it be that way but that my experience, the evidence of the senses, had suggested that it was so.

 

It is because consciousness is bound to the body that we can bring back who we please (in my conceived state of being!)

In the bliss, we shall all surprise ourselves!

(I almost feel sorry for myself, looking as though I am crossing my own wires!)

You ones who snort your contempt for my flights of imagination, remember I am the atheist, as "opposed" to the eggman, and ....HOLD FAST! LOL


thedope:

Eternity has always deserted us because we don't get the body involved. It's to hand alright.