I won't drink poison on purpose, the Bible says not to temmt God (OT) Oh, and BTW: I've SEEN healings happen. Actually, it's pretty common, go to the next evengelisation to see yourself. And yes, I know of people being healed of things like AIDS and Cancer, - even of people who got healed of things like screwed up spines, or broken limbs. I'm very used to it by now, nothing realy shocking anymore. I can cast out demons (and if it's God's will- heal them throught their power.) If you don't believe me, why not start a Thread in the Christian forum asking them if they've witnessed healing, or have been healed by the touch of Christ? I know I got rid of some demons, thanks to him. And the Prophecy fortold by Isaiah (which I've previously posted) : Isa 54 Who has believed our report?And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,And as a root out of dry ground.He has no form or comeliness;And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men,A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;Yet we esteemed Him stricken,Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed . 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned, every one, to his own way;And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He opened not His mouth;He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,And who will declare His generation?For He was cut off from the land of the living;For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked — But with the rich at His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;He has put Him to grief.When You make His soul an offering for sin,He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,Because He poured out His soul unto death,And He was numbered with the transgressors,And He bore the sin of many,And made intercession for the transgressors. NKJV Is in every version of the Bible! *Maybe* even the Koran. Also, -show me atleast 3 of the verses in my previous post that do not share the same meaning in different versions of the Bible. I made sure to keep it in the Gosspels for you. I'll be waiting!
This really strikes me as funny. In other threads you explained yourself how OT stuff doesn't matter, since the NT replaced it or whatever, but then you don't believe the same of Islam?
Well I don't know much about Islam, but isn't it sort of loosely based on Christianity much the way Christianity is based on Judaism? So if something in the NT changed the law, it would seem quite possible Islam would take that into account wouldn't it?
The Old Testament states that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. The New Testament told of the Final Blood sacrifice, - Jesus. Pure human blood spilt for sinful blood, which washed away all sin, except the sin of disbelief. But Muslims don't believe Jesus died on the cross, they say that Judas died for him. So they *seem* to ignore that law... That's why I was asking where it says in the Koran that that Law of Blood sacrifice was changed. And yes, Muslims base their belief on the old testament and most of the Gosspel (4 books in the New testament, the rest they reject). They call their scriptures the 'last' Testament.
If this is your point, that one must sacrifice in order to be forgiven then this is not the Quran. Why because the verses speaking about forgiveness say that you need to repent sincerly to be forgiven but slaughtering of animals is still consider a worship if done correctly. Let me remind you of one thing here. The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) gave us some guidlines concerning the bible, he told us not to accept(the bible we have today) it totally nor to reject some verses totally since we believe its mixed with human thoughts aswell as divine insperations. We do not rule or take anything from the torah or the gospels we only believe that they were sent before but without following its rules. You say you cast out demons, may I ask how?
The person must be ready and wanting to get rid of a demon (otherwise 7 others will come ). One takes authority over the demon and order him come out of the person in Jesus' name, - Just like Jesus and his apostals did (the book of Acts has alot of information about this). Them Demons are really ugly....^^; If you want, there's more detailed info here: http://www.tbm.org/castoutdemons.htm The person who got the demon cast out of him/her usually feels as if warm honey was melting down them... The sacrifices aren't worship like the Pagans see it, it's a covenant to pay for your wrongdoings, not to please the deity.. If you don't believe in the blood sacrifices, you may as well not believe in the ten commandments. That's what the whole relationship in Torah times and Jesus times was all about... What did you think the Passover meal in Jerusalem was, a party? BTW: Christians also believe that salvation comes through repentance. Because Jesus already payed for all sin (except disbelief and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). But since you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, there's no sacrifice behind your repentance (unless you do some). Therefore going against the Laws given to Moses, without (I believe) having this law changed in the Last Testament. If you wouldn't have to do this, why doesn't the LT have a verse in which this law was changed in? Didn't Muhammed and the other prophets set all the rules straight?
I read the part about demon withdrawal and i must say it was interesting. Do I believe in this and that which you have experienced? Yes, it could be true(you like going what!). You may have seen these things but what does this prove, pagan priests can do the exact same thing through the exact same method. This by calling on somebody else besides the Creator which satisfies the demon who then leaves. You said: in Jesus' name. Just like Jesus but Christ said he did this by the power of God so why not follow his example? Now Im confused, so Christ died for our sins yet we are supposed to repent? Ehh how does that work out? I dont see your point with the blood sacrifice thing, why would this affect us muslims since we dont follow that law?
You follow the ten commandments, right? If so, blood sacrifice must also be held in. Since this major law doesn't seem to have been changed. But I'm tired of saying 'look at Laviticus', so I'll just post the parts I mean : Lev 3-5 Leviticus 3 3:1 The Peace Offering 'When his offering is a sacrifice of a peace offering, if he offers it of the herd, whether male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD. 2 And he shall lay his hand on the head of his offering, and kill it at the door of the tabernacle of meeting; and Aaron's sons, the priests, shall sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. 3 Then he shall offer from the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire to the LORD. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 4 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 5 and Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is on the wood that is on the fire, as an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD. 6'If his offering as a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD is of the flock, whether male or female, he shall offer it without blemish. 7 If he offers a lamb as his offering, then he shall offer it before the LORD. 8 And he shall lay his hand on the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of meeting; and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle its blood all around on the altar. 9'Then he shall offer from the sacrifice of the peace offering, as an offering made by fire to the LORD, its fat and the whole fat tail which he shall remove close to the backbone. And the fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 10 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 11 and the priest shall burn them on the altar as food, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 12'And if his offering is a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD. 13 He shall lay his hand on its head and kill it before the tabernacle of meeting; and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle its blood all around on the altar. 14 Then he shall offer from it his offering, as an offering made by fire to the LORD. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, 15 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove; 16 and the priest shall burn them on the altar as food, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma; all the fat is the LORD's. 17'This shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall eat neither fat nor blood.'" Leviticus 4 4:1 The Sin Offering Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying:'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. 4 He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, lay his hand on the bull's head, and kill the bull before the LORD. 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull's blood and bring it to the tabernacle of meeting. 6 The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil of the sanctuary. 7 And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood of the bull at the base of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 He shall take from it all the fat of the bull as the sin offering. The fat that covers the entrails and all the fat which is on the entrails, 9 the two kidneys and the fat that is on them by the flanks, and the fatty lobe attached to the liver above the kidneys, he shall remove, 10 as it was taken from the bull of the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn them on the altar of the burnt offering. 11 But the bull's hide and all its flesh, with its head and legs, its entrails and offal — 12 the whole bull he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn it on wood with fire; where the ashes are poured out it shall be burned. 13'Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting. 15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD. Then the bull shall be killed before the LORD. 16 The anointed priest shall bring some of the bull's blood to the tabernacle of meeting. 17 Then the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil. 18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 19 He shall take all the fat from it and burn it on the altar. 20 And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. 21 Then he shall carry the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull. It is a sin offering for the assembly. 22'When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. 24 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the goat, and kill it at the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD. It is a sin offering. 25 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And he shall burn all its fat on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of the peace offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. 27'If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him. 32'If he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. 33 Then he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it as a sin offering at the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him. Leviticus 5 5:1 The Trespass Offering 'If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter — if he does not tell it, he bears guilt. 2'Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty. 3 Or if he touches human uncleanness — whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty. 4'Or if a person swears, speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, whatever it is that a man may pronounce by an oath, and he is unaware of it — when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty in any of these matters. 5'And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; 6 and he shall bring his trespass offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin. 7'If he is not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD, for his trespass which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons: one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering. 8 And he shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off its head from its neck, but shall not divide it completely. 9 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. 10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him. 11'But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. 12 Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. It is a sin offering. 13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest's as a grain offering.'" 14 Offerings with Restitution Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 15 "If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the LORD, then he shall bring to the LORD as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering. 16 And he shall make restitution for the harm that he has done in regard to the holy thing, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. So the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. 17 "If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. 19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the LORD." NKJV This should probably explain repentance as well. There's much more to it. Christ said "IN MY NAME thout shall cast out Demons." As you can see in that other post. In all Bibles ( and probably the Quoran ) this is said. We follow his example, we cast out demons through God (Jesus is God), since Jesus was God, they already feared him, he didn't have to add 'I am Jesus', because they already knew of him. But we're not God, that's why we need to use Jesus' name. Demons just hate the blood of Christ, when you bind or cast out devils it's like throwing acid at them. They hate it. Because on that day Jesus was crucified, Satan lost. Jesus spent 3 days in hell to pay for all sin. An INNOCENT man payed in hell. He then took the 3 keys, and now, whoever believes in him has authority over the devil. What? You think pagans can 'cast' out demons? Well, they can, but 7 more will come. It's not even casting out, more like 'switching'. By us the demon is GONE, without 7 more comming. Without switching. And they aren't satisfied, they fear Jesus: Luke 8:26-39 26 A Demon-Possessed Man Healed (Matt 8:28-9:1; Mark 5:1-20) Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said,"What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!" 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness. 30 Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion ," because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. 32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned. We don't cast out demons with Belzebub, like the Pagans do. Jesus even told his desciples to go cast out demons. And I should know, I've been into Paganism.
Ive read most of your quotes, but this one was just too long No its not, its not in all the bible and definatly not in the Quran. He says: I read from christiancourier.com that "Because Mark 16:9-20 is missing from two of the oldest Greek manuscripts, and from some of the early versions, and because of certain perceived problems in the continuity between 16:9ff and the preceding context, most textual critics today question the genuineness of this section. That is, they dispute that it was a part of Mark’s original Gospel " no to mention the notes found in the NIV bible which says: "Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. Once again, why in the name of Christ when he did it in the name of God? How did he loose? How can they fear a man who said that he cant do anything for him self? In my ears, if they fear Christ they should also fear the harmless cow which cant do nothing for it self either?
i dont think Satan truly lost on this, cause well, all the unrepented, and who is not accepted into Heaven through God's mercy, end up in Hell, whatever it is
I don't understand your last question. Satan lost against Christ because Christ took the Keys of Hell. Now we've got authority over him. Jesus was God (I just found many more verses supporting this.). And Jesus just said 'get out', and they went out. I don't recall him saying 'in the name of God', but I could be mistaken.
Sh'ma Israel, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Ehad. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." The original quote. What the Xtians conveniently forget is that sacricfice continued until the destruction of the Second Temple under Titus in 70 CE. about 40 years of sacrifice continue after Jesus walked.Thus he cannot be a great and redeeming sacrifice. Do you not see how pitiful this is arguing from different books (and the Xtians having translation after translation)? I really think RU is flaming. from the forum guidelines that we all agreed to upon registering # Flaming/Trolling: Flames are posts intended to insult and provoke. Posters who speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude will be banned. ****Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or group of people or their beliefs will be cause for banning.***** Any individual who chronically trolls, who regularly posts arguments, flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion will be banned.
I'm not flaming. If I'd be flaming I'd be yelling and screeming and tearing everyone's head off... And I'm not trolling either. If I'd be trolling I'd put pointless and random Post...( doen't look like I have, does it?) This isn't even really intended to be an argument at all ( only a discussion. ) This certainly isn't the case, sorry if it came through this way! ^^;
all you are doing is coming OUT of the Xtian forum and into Islam to provoke withthe tired old "gonna burn in hell" shtick you are in a passive agressive way, to readers, attacking nonXtians for their beliefs as a group. again: Repeated posts directed with hostility at a particular person or ****group of people or their beliefs****** will be cause for banning. I really think you'd get the answers you want at theologyweb. and actually, one could yell and scream, as long as one stops short of attacks on the individual.
no, no...I'm not meaning to be hostile. Most of the stuff here is just answers for Cabdirazzaq's questions. So I gave him answer via scripture. (since he believes in the gosspels). It's just a simple discussion...about scripture. And I didn't come in here going like " WHAAAAH!!1! You're all going to hell you fools!!!!" no. I asked a question
I dunno, this thread seems pointless, as it has gone absolutely no where. Cabdirrazzaq hasn't explained why Muslims stopped doing blood sacrifices, and both of you are just arguing from your own sacred scripture. Face it, RYU, you don't believe the Quran is infallablly the word of God, but Cabdirazzaq does; and he doesn't believe the bible is infallably the word of God, but you do. So, you both has your own seperate infallable scriptures... scriptures that disagree with each other. Now, how can any conclusion be made in this situation? You're both starting the discussion from an infallable position, which means, in each of your own minds, you CANNOT be wrong. So what's the point?
