An open letter to the anti-war movement

'We' have won.. even Al-quaeda realises that now .. with letters claiming victory for the removal of US troops...even though his efforts had nothing to do with it.. but there you are.

11 million people voted with no violence from themselves.. and a shared dislike of Saddam. They can vote for a Saddam figure if they so desire.. it is about time they had a CHOICE.. wich has been provided .

We need to get our heads out of history and look at the present..whats going on NOW.

 

Whats going on NOW

11 U.S. troops killed in escalating Iraq violence
136 total deaths nationwide Thursday, the 4th highest since war began

 

Yes who is doing that ?... If i was to add 250 insurgents killed near border or 30 taken into custody [just e.g not fact].. is that better than your point ?.. i don't think so... I am not playing 'bodycounts'. Yeah there is violence... getting 11 million people voteing with hardly a death or your 'escalating violence' is a miracle. I would rather focus on that fact, call me a optimistic fool if you wish.

 

You fogot to add that Iraqi voters had very poor candiate information and little access to the Iraqi goverment. Iraq needs a revolution as the current system doesn't work.

 

I know i read that.. pictures symbols etc etc etc .. Not all voters were so uninformed .. Its just like any vote anywhere... some people are super informed other not so..a lack of education does not help.

Heck in this country the amount of hair you have is all it takes to swing some peoples vote. If the person knew of the person [even just what they looked like] and they voted it is there choice...and all that matters.

I never said it was perfect.. though i guess 'miracle' is implying quite a lot i have to say .

They are having a revolution.. not a super sexy revolution like you might like with huge banners decrying the ''EVIL WEST'' or ''FASCIST BUSH'' or even ''BLAIR LIES''.. but a revolution IS happening..

 

It wouldn't blame the voters for being so uninformed it mostly had to do with no infestructure to allow Iraqis to partake in the goverment at a grassroot level.

 

You can't just say things and hope they are true.. thats the rude answer

I guess it is difficult when the fear of being blown to kingdom come is ever present.. but it would imho be a fallacy to totaly agree with your point...just having access to a media that is varied in it's opinions is quite a decent step in being informed.... thats the nicer answer. i won't just disagree with you.. but it just seem highly conveniant what you say.

http://www.ieciraq.org/English/Frameset_english.htm

 

Not really, it can't replace townhall meeting and workers having a say in the workplace.

 

Confronting the stereotypes presented:
I don't think it's particularly productive to argue with either of you since I believe you're both firm in your beliefs. I just ask you do the same for me and people like me.
Peace is a complex but spiritual foil to the immorality of warfare and destruction. I don't support Iraq's past government, but I don't support the U.S. occupation in the Middle East either. The concept of peace was in the thought behind the war, but I see it becoming more media-cized and much more a political strategy than an ending to actual warfare.
I believe in the concept of socialism because I have faith that with a socialist government in power, true peace and justice can be achieved. I don't ask that you believe that, it's just my personal belief. I doubt that socialism will ever become a prominent force in the west, but I still hold my beliefs and I'll still support socialist candidates and the education of the people in socialist ideals.
I don't like the classification made of anti-war protesters. Many of us are inspired by our deeply-held ethical convictions and while the "scene kids" may get more media coverage, I don't like to base my opinions off the what the media tells me and I don't think that disgruntled "been there done that"ers should either.
What more can you do for the cause you believe in than to support it through the movements? You may not agree with every ideal held by a movement, but we're such a diverse populace that it's impossible to find a specific intrest group with enough grassroots influence to bring about the exact change you desire.
As for the crust punks you reference, I don't have taste for them either. They like the scene, but at least they're there in support. Maybe through some kind soul they meet, they'll learn the true meaning and ideal behind mobilization and social change.
I'm upset that such a stereotype was picked to classify those of the anti-war movement. I don't support the corporate institutions and I don't buy products from them. I either make my own clothes or trade off through community clothes or buy used products. The same goes for what few things I own. I spend my time in the outdoors, I may not bathe every day, but I don't have a hot shower to look forward to all the time, so I'm not sure what the point is. I'm not a suburbanite, I'm an upper-lower class kid that was brought up on food stamps. That doesn't stop me though, I still educate myself and I work, I work when I can to pay for the things I need for my free public education. I put up with the military calling every other day to recruit me even though I filled out the no-call forms before the october deadline. My parents work full-time, my mom used to work two jobs, but with her diabetes getting so bad, she can hardly work one let alone walk.
I've grown up being cheated by democracy in action. My grandad was killed in Vietnam after fighting in Korea, but yet the government still thinks it can persuade me into fighting the war on terror. My dad was guarenteed a government scholarship and government job after college but got neither. We got food stamps instead, but then because of the welfare system regulations we were taken off food stamps because my parents made 50 cents over the cut off rate.
Unemployment payments, now that's a joke too. And then there's the laws on receiving medical care for when your wife goes blind. Did you know that in order to receive medicaid you need to be separated, divorced, or otherwise single? There isn't support for a family that has two married working parents who are too rich for food stamps but can't clothe or feed themselves. It's funny because the rich kids they always show on TV can afford about everything, so it's like we're breeding our kids into materialism, which is just fantastic for folks that can't afford toys.
But aside from my own experiences, you can read in the papers about these families whose lives are cut short by our government's choices. War, rape, brutal forms of desecrating human life. It seems if we'd start with the economic roots to these problems, we'd cut crime to next to nothing. If we'd start giving out birth control for free, developing a safety net for economic harsh times, people would be inclined to productivity. People would be proud to be American.
Instead it seems we blow our money on a defense system that "can't" be penetrated except clearly when it comes to making logical ecological and economic decisions. We build up huge corporations and make them unstopable. We travel overseas and Americanize every damn city we find or build. We teach materialism, consumerism, and violence. We exacerbate situations without thinking about the clear cause and effect. We take every culture and twist it into something mangled and American.
It's sick and I don't support it. So yes, I join the anti-war movement with a thick skull and an active thought pattern behind it.

And also, by doubing it the anti-war movement, you infer the coalition and supporters of the war on terror would make up the pro-war movement, but I can't quite say I've ever met a single person who's actively pro-war.

 

wow. that's kind of like saying, "Lets forget the fact that our new neighbor is a convicted child molestor and be grateful to him for letting our kids play in his yard".

 

No democratic system is perfect. Democracy by its very definition means compromise. It means that every group of vested interests has their say. If as you say a large percentage of the Iraqi people want land reform, then that topic will go before the Iraqi Parliament to be debated, if enough Iraqis lobby for it. The outcome can't be estimated though as other vested interests will have their say too. Remember that democracy means that no one vested interest group has complete control and dictatorship over other groups.

It is common in democracies especially new one for one group to claim the new system is not truely democratic when their side doesn't get its way. But as they get used to how the democratic proccess works they the begin to understand what parliamentary democracy means and get used to it.

By the way to the diehard pacificst as I said in my first message pacifism never liberated anyone. We need to change out attitude to war if our ideology is to be realistic. A blanket statment like "all war is wrong" is ignoring reality. People need to look at each war in its own context and then decide whether it is a just war or not. For example even though Jesus said "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy". He did not say let your enemy beat you, let him enslave your people, let him murder and rampage at will. The sensible person understands that Jesus was telling people to try diplomacy first before resorting to force.
http://www.protestwarrior.com

 

Y'know, for a completely insane person, you always say the most thought-provoking, lucid things.

OK, warmongers. So you think sending young men and women off to die for someone else's freedom is an oh-so-good idea. It's ok to want peace if you've never been in a war. It's not ok to want a war if you've been leeching off mom and dad all your life. Please state your bona fides or shut up and go away.

I'll go first.

1983: 43d Military Airlift Wing, Pope AFB SC. Flew missions in support of ingress and egress of US Marines and evacuation of us and foreign students. Yeah that was me in the back of a C141 in the movie Heartbreak Ridge.

1984-1986, 1988-1990, 1991-1992: Republic of Korea. Years of combat pay helped me finanace a new car and a custom made pair of dingoes that I still wear. But it didn't help that there were 100,000 North Koreans over the next hill who had been itching to kill an American since 1953.

1990-1991: 69XX Intelligence Wing (Provisional) Riyadh AB, Saudi Arabia. Dodging SCUDS is fun, folks. Watching good friends die is not.

The spaces in between from March 1982 until March 1995 were non-combat assignments.

I've been there. I've seen people killed. In horrible ways. You have no fucking earthly idea what you ask for. And this isn't the way to get it.

 

Well, I see a lot of people in here are ignoring those who support our national efforts in the middle east. I then see those same people chastise the war supporters for being closed minded. How can you ignore an entire point of view and consider yourself openminded.

The entire reason I view this board is that I am a war supporter who realizes that there is a very real possibility that I, and my nation are dead wrong in being on the ground in the Middle East. But I don't really think so.

What I would really like to see is war supporters writing anti-war pieces and the anti-war crowd writing pro-war threads. By doing this we will force ourselves to think outside of our self imposed intellectual boxes, and, perhaps, break some new ground. I haven't seen any new arguments of any value in quite some time.
wingding

 

While the USA was setting up "democracy" in Iraq it tried to topple the democratic goverment of Venezuela and failed due to Chavez having worked (and still working) to allow grassroot participation in the system so the people had faith in their elected goverment thus rejected the dictatorship that US was trying to install.

Venezuela is proof that the US is not intrested in spreading democracy (quite the opposite) and the Iraqis should kick the Americans out.

 

Very well said - should be a thread stoper

 

For a zoomie, you talk pretty good sense. Kind of hard for an old grunt to say so but you do - 91 Bravo

 

I'm not sure I understand the term "pro-war" to begin with. I believe there's a difference in the term "pro-war" and the term "war supporters." It's one thing to support a war, but it's another to be proponent of an agenda for war and terror.
I for one would support a "war" on poverty, but I would not support a war which actually involved the desecration of morality or the killing of people. For this reason, I would call myself part of the "anti-war crowd," but it's completely beyond me why anyone would be "pro-war" so I can't say I'd ever be able to honestly consider a "pro-war" opinion valid let alone post a thread supporting that position.

 

91 boom-booms are mostly good people. I don't care for people who wouldn't know which end of the tube the round comes out telling me that this is right and this is wrong when they had a culturally different upbringing in a different time and have zippy for life experience. Spend an evening scrubbing a good friend's brains off your equipment and then tell me how it's ok to go to war. You weren't there, you didn't do it, you don't know, shut the hell up.

 

Well no.. but i was thinking if this is possible
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051228/wl_mideast_afp/iraqvoteprotest
then i suppose it is just as likely there is was and will be the availability of freedom of speach and a ability to discuss the issues.

So aside from the threat of violence.. debate and interaction IS possible.

I did read that the coalition troops had asked if a local representative wished to air the views of the people ..in a open ended forum.. but some people thought it colaboration so declined.. I don't suppose it is as 'grassroots' as is the norm in some countrys..but i DO think the tools are there if people wish.

Workers having a say in the workplace.?..

This is a different matter .. there will be more rights and privelages allowed now..than previously.. this is not something that is or will be repressed ...

 

Forget may have been a strong term... i was merely trying to say dragging up history is sometimes counter productive and not alway relevant.. This happened then and thats why this happened.. FINE but sometimes i believe this clouds the issue and provokes irelevancies to the issues at hand.. Thats all i was trying to say.. maybe not very well.. shucks i am a bit ill... SUE ME.