All Quiet on the Eastern Front.....

Heh well, thank you for your encouraging comments Spook, I really appreciate that . I am glad you like what I said. however, I do not think it is right to say that I have a whole life and you are looking for a short end. I mean, anything can happen at any minute, so there is definitely an uncertainity to life.

Second, we all are going to be born once we die anyway, and those of us who are on their path to God are always born in families of men/women who help them continue on that path. So, no worries, death and rebirth can happen to any of us at any time, but we will still be there doing the same thing.

 

I don't get it, you said industrial revolution after 1750 has gotten us into this artificial world, then wouldn't it make sense to get back to pre-1750 to awaken the "deeper consciousness" that is connected to 'real earth'?

Some of these ashrams with no electricity and running water in the himalayas give people deep spiritual awakenings. So wouldn't it make sense to go back?

 

lalalalalal

 

Spirutual awakening is neither in Himalayas nor in starbucks. It is in you, here, now.

 

There are many considerations here Jedi - for example, given the massive expansion of global population levels it is questionable if we could produce enough food and commodities to cater for all if we were to abandon modern technology.
And there is nothing wrong with technology per se - it's more to do with how we apply it. If it's done as now in a kind if rush for wealth then I think we'll very probably reach a situation where the balance of nature will swing against us. If on the other hand we can become conscious and use technology in a sensitive way, aiming at benefiting all, then I see nothing against that.
We can't go backwards - we've created problems that require we maintain a certain level of technology for many centuries to come - large amounts of neuclear waste for example will have to be monitored and watched over for a considerable time.
That's karma - we've created the problems and we'll have to deal with them.
People must wake up and see that we simply can't go on as we have up to now - if not, I think we could end up destroying ouselves.

It seems that humans are the 'techno animals' in one sense - that's been true since we made the first stone tool. We just have to learn how to make our technologies sustainable, and organize society in such a way that all get the benefits. How that can be achieved is of course the big question.

 

Though given the choice I would guess the former over the latter. Ugh...Starbucks annoys me...and it doesn't even taste good either ::stops tangent before it continues::

I agree though. That was my round about way of saying that.

 

it is easier for most people to go to starbucks than the himalayas.

I don't know how yak's milk tea compares to starbucks cofee.

 

Ofcourse, no one is questioning that. However, there are holy places for a reason , that is - they purify us and enable us to reach Krishna/God more easily. One good way to explain it would be: they uplift our minds and purify them so that we can see God more clearly.

Anyway, that was not what I wanted to say. My question was, IF we can better "connect" to the universe if we abandon technology, why won't we do it?
Ofcourse BBB, answered it by saying it is not practical and its true.

We have alot of problems in the world. Global warming, the increasing infertility of land, increasing population, so day by day we have less food, less water and less of everything.
Things like genetic engineering and other new scientific methods that require today's technology might be our only means of solving these problems.

 

So, I wrote this on an airplane...I can't be held responsible for the rambling or the deleriousness....but I don't think I will edit it. Tis a bit long (sorry)...but here's my response to the thread:

So, IÕm flying over the Pacific as I write this (I left the windows of the whole thread open so I could read it all). So forgive me if I start to get long winded or something (11 hours is a long time! ) Oh also, all I have is a page of Yogananda quotes thatÕs been keeping me company: youÕve been warned.

I so agree with you here BBB. Its funny b/c one of the articles in these magazineÕs on the plane was about a man who works for the Chopra center and he talks about the problem of modern medicine being that it is so focused on stopping disease only in the terms of science and not seeing it from all angles and stopping it before it startsÉ.integrating mind, body, and spirit. And I think thatÕs all part of finding this positive approach to life. One of the biggest turn offÕs of Christianity is that guilt factor. What an awful feeling to think as a child that you are inheritably a bad person and you have to spend your whole life saying you are a sinner and if you donÕt ask for forgiveness you go to hell for eternity. Its enough to scare most small children and I know thatÕs why so many kids when we were younger left the church and sadly spirituality all together. ArenÕt we instead inherently good people (we were made in GodÕs image) who got a bit lost in karma and illusion and are finding our way back home? I canÕt remember the exact quote, but one of my favourites is a letter of Ma Indira Devi that gdkumar send me and she says that, God has given me the plot of land and the seeds to sow but he knows I am not a good gardener. I forget to sow, forget to reap. Often times the rains find me sleeping. But he overlooks it and smiles on my efforts, however small. We need to bridge the gap between this all-forgiving compassionate God (whom I decided to focus on when I was little b/c I couldnÕt understand that you had to ÒfearÓ GodÉif he was supposed to be all Love) and this idea of oneness with the universe. We do need to focus on love, loving and accepting. Accepting who we are and trying to improve ourselves and then taking that love and reflecting it to others.

In a time of misfortune I heard Thy voice saying: ÒThe sun of My protection shines equally on thy brightest and thy blackest hours.
Have faith and smile! Sadness is an offence against the blissful nature of Spirit. Let My life-transforming light appear through the transparency of smiles. By being happy, My child, thou dost please Me.Ó= Paramahansa Yogananda


I think somewhere else you mentioned different paths as well and thatÕs the best part of it all. You know? I love thinking of it on the grander scale of universe within us and without us but at the same time, finding a personal form/reflection of the Infinite is very comforting. I know thatÕs why people say that religion is false for people have been making it up to be comforted, but I donÕt know if thatÕs so. Though I do admit it brings me comfort, I am afraid of many things. But I donÕt think it just springs from that, I think comfort is an aftereffect of something bigger. But seriously it all feels like it comes to the feeling of having some kind of relationship with the sacred whether that sacred is so big we canÕt fathom it, both so big yet within us, or a wonderful friend/guardian who looks after us and talks with us. I donÕt know, I guess the beauty that the bhakti path (though the others have played other parts, this one shines a bit more) has given me makes me feel this way. When I was in Bangkok, I canÕt relate to you how I felt when I went to this most beautiful Buddhist temple then a most beautiful Hindu temple, each time physically and spiritually laying down the flowers of my devotion. And they were so beautiful not because of the physical architecture or the smells and the murthis but rather being every other person there was doing exactly what I was doing and it filled the places with beautiful silent stillness of sacred peace. Every night when I kneel down, any kind of doubt that I have in all of this seems to just melt awayÉI form my tiny voice around the name of ÔRamÕ (esp. when after IÕve gotten too caught up in school and such) I just lose myself. Who knows if its all real or not? But every time I read the great masterÕs works, I sit down to pray or sing, or I close my eyes and be quiet I canÕt help but let my doubts melt away whether or not the world wants me to keep them. ThatÕs my thought on this entire bit. I donÕt know the grand schemes of the universe, but a tiny bit of me does know that there is a great love and perhaps that is the universe that is within us all. All we have to do is get back to it and then give it to others. If all that is made up, and war and power struggles are reality, call me a dreamer for life.

-I sing a hymn unuttered by any other voice. To Thee I offer the virgin theme that my heart chants secretly. Alone I have nurtured my song child; now I bring it to Thee for Thy training.
To Thee I give no intellectual, premeditated, and disciplined aria; only the untutored strains of my heart. For Thee no hothouse flowers, watered by careful emotions; only rare wild blossoms that grow spontaneously on the highest tracts of my soul. - Paramahansa Yogananda


-O Father, with folded hands I come to offer Thee my whole being. I saturate my prayers with deep love. Give me toward Thee the simple, sincere devotion of a child.
May I intuit Thy nearness behind the words of my prayer. Teach me to feel Thee in all my emotions, to realize that Thy wisdom upholds my understanding, and to be conscious of my life as an expression of Thyself, the Sole Life.- Paramahansa Yogananda


::changing subject as reading more of the thread::

Bhaskar, I love that computer thing ? and BBB, I liked ÒThe InvitationÓ the first time you posted it and it happies me once more indeed. ?

Yes, for sometime not it has been all for one, you know. And thereÕs nothing wrong with wanting to do well and provide for your family, but thereÕs something up when the scale is tipping way to drastically one way and not the other. And I guess thatÕs back to the question of balance again. In my religion class we talked about the yin and yang and how its not good and evil per say but rather between balance and chaos. I think thatÕs what we are really seeking is some balance in this chaos. A balance between body and spirit, rich and poor, technology and whole livingÑsome kind of middle ground.

O Living Lord, help me train the truant children of my senses not to wander away from perceptions of Thee.
Direct my gaze to Thy wondrous world within, to watch Thine ever-changing beauty.
May I hear the lilt of Thy secret lyre.
Teach me to feel Thy presence in me, above me, beneath me, and around me.
Bless me, that I catch the scent of Thy breath of bliss.
Let me drink forever from the sourceless river of Thine inexhaustibility.
Orientwise, with sacred rites I offer at Thine altar the candles of my senses. May their spiritualized light mingle with Thine in the first pale shaft of dawn, the brash noon brightness, the muted glow of dusk, and the nightÕs moon silver.
O Guardian of my being, keep ever burning before Thee the fivefold taper of my love.- Paramahansa Yogananda

 

I've made my peace with Christians and Christianity now...don't feel a need to debate the big questions with them any more, online or face to face...maybe just ask a question, bring up a point, and avoid confrontation.

That's encouraging, Bill. The 60's and 70's were a tough time to grow up in, with established social patterns in both America and GB being turned on their ears right and left, with resulting family disruptions, new "lifestyle choices", weird peer pressure, etc. The big changes have now become established and I think the younger people are coming of age in a much more orderly social environment. But I don't blame my personal failings on the 60's environment somehow causing me to screw up...by the usual material measures I was a success, USA style. The regrets I have are over broken friendships, friends and family members lost young to drugs and drink, people I treated poorly through selfishness, insensitivity, and ignorance.

Regarding generational rapport, I'm finding the same thing...the younger folks in my life seem to regard me as a fairly hip geezer. Actually, most of my current friends are much younger.

Yeah, people are opinionated here on the Hinduism forum, but the eastern-style attitude is here and it works.

Jedi, a growing awareness of mortality is creeping up on me...all I can reasonably hope for is another 20 or 25 years, if that, with diminished health always a possibility. The regrets weigh heavily at times.

 

Me too - I mean I've decided to quit the c/anity forum as well as islam.

Also, as I am approaching my half-century later this year, I am aware that I have only limited time left in this life. My resolve is to maximize what time I do have. I too worry about the possibility of illnesses etc.

I also agree that the 60's and 70's were a kind of topsy-turvy time, esp. for the young. All I can say is that I don't have too many regrets. In a way, my main regret is that I didn't make more of a material success of my life in terms of wealth, on the other hand, I've certianly had a varied life, and come across things which I never even imagined as a child.
I can't say that given the chance to live a lot longer I'd turn it down, but I don't think I really fear death as such - I can do without pain and suffering, but death itself may turn out to be a new opportunity - certainly it may well prove a very interesting thing.
Still, I guess both of us have a few years left yet. I hope so.

 

Yeah...I have read that in a lot of his books and I agree. No, we're not perfect but when you see it from a different world view it changes the way you carry yourself in the world.

Yeah, I like that about Taoism, the idea that things should be done in teh nature order, with instead of against the grain. In harmony w/ balance

 

I can't emphasize too much how important I think it is to have a positive self image. I don't mean in the egotistical sense, or that we should be blind to our own failings. But if one adopts a positive mindset, one can see one's faults and hopefully try to improve things.

This is where I totally disagree with some christians who believe that our 'works' as they put it, avail us nothing, and that only 'belief' (whatever that may mean) is necessary for 'salvation'.

An attitude which I don't like is the tendency of some to think that the world is basically bad, and throw up their hands in resignation, hoping only that the next life will be better. That's closely related I think to the belief that we are all sinners. How could you expect a world populated by sinners to be up to much?

On the contrary, I believe, as I said at the outset of this thread, that we are the leading edge of conscious manifestation in the universe that we percieve and know also through other levels of experience. It is in us, human beings, that God, the universe, H.I., or whatever concept you choose, has invested billions of years of development. As we evolve as a spieces beyond what Buckminster Fuller described as long ages of 'permitted ignorance' the crude and negative conceptions of the past which tend to devalue our existence here will hopefully fade away.

To be human is to be a child of the universe, a child of the divine. But the world 'child' is significant here - we are only just now arriving at the point where the creation of a virtual paradise on earth is feasible.
To quote another author who has influenced me, Aleister Crowley, 'it is up to us how the child grows up'.

Let's just hope that the regressive forces don't win the day, because that would be a shame. We could end up in a position where we'd have to re-start civilization over. Before that though, we might have to pass through an extremely destructive dark age.
To the universe, I won't say 'it doesn't matter', but probably life exists elsewhere too, on other planets. However, I am far from writing off this world as a failure. And there is no sign that the universe itself is about to fail us...

 

Sometimes BBB, people often mistakenly mix up shame and humbleness. I think that the idea in christianity is to be humble that we were 'sinners' and be humble that Jesus will come and save us one day, which will prevent us from being egotistical , selfish and encourage us to a level of goodness to please jesus and the lord.

Sadly, some people might mix it up and think they have to be shameful.

Singlemindedness is a good thing to develop, it will remove doubts and helps us concentrate on one thing only. However, after a while of service to God, the devotee - whether christian/any other religion will realize that everyone is a child of his God. That way, he will learn to develop into maturity.

I agree on your positiveness message BBB, we can take this sinner concept positively and accepting this concept, we can start to think about how to improve the world one at a time, starting with ourselves.

I don't see the regressive forces winning here, because at the end dharma always wins, and dharma is not a regressive negative force.

 

I can only repeat what I said - it is wrong and harmful to see oneself as a 'sinner' or in other negative terms.Equally , it is wrong to see the world with a negative bias.

As to whether the progressive forces will prevail, I think it's certainly not guaranteed, and we are actually currently at great risk that we will destroy ourselves.

 

the nature of things seems to be that what we think about, we become, or at least become closely bound up with or related to it. That's after all a big part of the basic idea in paths like Vaishnavism of thinking of Krishna.

Krishna says 'he who constantly thinks of me comes to me'
And he who constantly thinks in negative terms will become negative. As sure as night follows day.

To a great extent it seems we do make our own reality.
So that's why I say that to hold a negative conception of oneself as basically bad, flawed, 'a sinner', or to project these same qualities onto the entire human race and the world itself can only be a big mistake.

Likewise, to have a concept of wrathful and harsh deity as per the old testament etc can only lead to a state of inner fear.

It is well known that people function best when free from stress, anxiety and so on. If a person adopts a view of the universe and their own self as negative, and god as perhaps even more negative, that itself must induce a kind of permanant inner stress. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that these types of attitudes which have been held in past times have led to a lot of the negativity in the world.

 

from:
http://www.iol.ie/~mazzoldi/toolsforchange/zine/imb96/spirit.htm

The idea of "green spirituality" - whether that means meditation, alternative therapies, paganism, ecofeminism or "Celtic Christianity" - upsets boundaries, between orthodox monotheisms and conventional disbelief, private "faith" and public "politics". The phrase is enough to make people uneasy: "spirituality", in practice, has usually meant inward authoritarianism, outward intolerance, the psychic scars of ex-believers and apologetics for domination.


What this critique misses is that our definitions of religion and spirituality are themselves Christian ones. Western colonisers, trying to understand the ways of thought they found in Asia, Africa, America and Australasia, forced their own categories onto "tribal" religions, where magic, kinship and law intertwine, and onto the non-theistic religions of the Far East, where philosophy, politics and ritual are not separated: for example, they could only make sense of the Buddha as god or prophet. The emphasis on belief and public worship as defining the "spiritual" then sidelines, as Christianity does, those "varieties of religious experience" (William James) which go beyond this.

If instead we understand "spirituality" as centred on inner experience, green spirituality starts to make more sense. The exploration of consciousness - through meditation, ritual or drugs - forms a bedrock, blending into healing at one end of the spectrum and DIY religion at the other. All of these offer, in varying degrees, an intensity of inner experience, a depth of human communication and a range of "technologies of the self" which are normally absent in our culture.

Much of this process is a movement towards self-empowerment: unlike established religions, there are few sanctions to keep people involved, and most groups have a high turnover of membership. There is then an explosion of "seekers", moving from one group to another and (hopefully) deepening in understanding and self-realisation as they do so. This may not be "enough", from a political point of view, but this capacity for self-direction and the definition of one's own needs is a precondition for any effective political activity.

We all bring our own agendas to the movement, place our own meanings on issues, or seek to realise ourselves in particular ways; but many activists cannot make this much conscious to themselves, let alone articulate it to others. This leads to action in bad faith, where the actual relations between activists are denied or instrumentalised to the point of manipulation; in many cases, this also involves a destructive self-manipulation or self-exploitation. Sustainable activism, by contrast, would mean, not substituting the personal for the political, but an awareness that the political is always, and necessarily, something that happens between - and within - people: if we do not understand this, and work with it, it will direct our political actions.

It then has to be said that much of the writing associated with green spirituality tends to avoid spiritual content (discussion of experience, understanding of our relation to ourselves, each other and the environment, examination of ethics, and so on); the repetition of discussions of symbols, festivals, correspondences, and so on eclipses the substantive questions. This is then a purely verbal spirituality, where Cernunnos is not used to express an inner experience but as a safe, conventionalised, pseudo-academic reference: the safety is emphasised by the exclusion of "Celts-as-known" (Stuart Piggott) in favour of "Celts-as-wished-for". This colonisation and making safe of the past is repeated in relation to other cultures, and to the self: spiritual experience not as discovery, but as Disneyland.

What would it mean to introduce a lived and living green spirituality into the green movement? A grounded self-understanding, an ability to communicate effectively and directly with each other, a dedication to achieving a shared understanding, an absence of manipulation and a taking responsibility for our own actions - certainly. Perhaps, also, some of the virtues of spiritual experience: a willingness to explore the areas we fear, an exhilaration in the re-creation of the world, a rejection of complacency, the clear light of understanding? A combination, perhaps, of the courage involved in shamanic experience, the honesty required by psychotherapy, the openness to radical change of the psychedelic tradition, the wildness of Celtic religion, the dialectical imagination of Taoist philosophy, the shining intelligence of Buddhism? That would be a welcome irruption of the spiritual into the political.... Laurence Cox

 

Thanks again to ChiefCowpie for this gem.

 

Since this was a thread I started with no particular topic I thought I'd post this here to avoid starting another thread which doesn't relate directly to Hinduism, but might be of passing interest to some here.


It's just a dream I had the other night which was quite vivid and realistic, if a bit surreal.

I was walking down a dry dusty road on a hot day. It was a kind of dirt track road with gravel or stones ground into the dust. It didn't seem like england, but I didn't seem to notice at the time. More like southern Spain or the Balearics.
I came around a corner where there were some dilapidated looking buildings, and to my right I saw a group of men huddled together at the roadside behind a table on which was an old fashioned movie projector. From their dress, which was all a dirty white, and beards I could see they were Muslims. Or that is how they appeared.They all seemed to be in a state of fright or fear, and one or two were covering their eyes by holding an arm up to the face.
Looking over to the opposite side of the road, I saw that they were looking at a neglected or run down looking set of double doors, such as you might see on an old barn or garage perhaps.
Onto this, was being projected the image of a monstrous head - It was strange - a kind of cartoon like image of some savage old testament type 'angry god'. It appeared to be growling. It shone with an eerie kind of glow. It left me entirely untouched, and I just felt that these people needed to be told to switch off the projector, or change to a different picture. In the dream, it all seemed quite matter of fact.
I had the idea very clearly that they were just frightening themselves, and I wondered how this could have come about. Still, they also seemed to be basically stupid.
I approached them, but they said they couldn't switch it off.
I offered to do it for them, but they said they were too afraid - that I would die, and the world would end, and that I must not touch. They were evidently very emotionally worked up as most were shedding tears. They asked me to please just go on. I thought they were in a bad state but I couldn't do much.
I turned away and began to walk on up the road in the same direction I'd been going before. But they began to yell I couldn't walk through the beam from the projector and live.
At this point in the dream I laughed, and stepped through the beam, continuing my walk up the road. When I looked back, they were still there, staring blankly at the projected image.
I came to a gate.On the other side was a green english meadow and a couple of gnarled oaks grew either side of the gate. Looking in another direction I saw a distant range of familiar mountains. I have seen those mountains before often in dreams, but never in reality. Somehow they look like they belong in America. It was then I knew I was in a dream. I stood for a few moments in silence, and then I awoke.


"if my thought dreams could be seen
they'd probably put my head
in a guillotine"
Bob Dylan.